God Uses Bridges & Cracked Pots - Patsy Clairmont’s Journey AlongTheWay 25

I realized that I was now a hostage in my home. And I had not only withdrawn from society, and withdrawn into my home, I had withdrawn into my bed. And I thought Now where do you go? If things get worse than they are now? What will you do? This was not an abundant life. And in that moment, when I realized I had nowhere else to go, I said to them, I'll do whatever you ask me. And in the moment, I said that I heard a mass me something. What I heard him say, of course, is not what I wanted. He said, make your bed and I thought, make my bed. I'm telling you. I'm pouring out my heart here. I'm in big trouble. I need you to help me. And I heard it again, make your bed.

Welcome to along the way. I'm John Matarazzo, your host and fellow traveler. Thank you for joining me along my way as I try to become more like Jesus every day. I love talking with fascinating people and learning how God has met them along their way. In this episode of along the way, I have the privilege and honor to talk with Patsy Claremont and Andrew Greer. Patsy Claremont is well known for her involvement in the women of faith conferences. Her humorous way of communicating her perspective on life comes through in her many books and speaking. In this episode, you will hear Patsy share how she faced her crippling fear and overcame it through God's direction, one step at a time. She is walking proof that God uses crackpots. I'm not being rude. That's actually the name of whatever books. I promise. Andrew Greer was featured in episode eight of along the way. And if you want to hear more of his along the way interview, I'll provide the link for that in the show notes. I would like to thank Redbirds social for the use of their studio to record this interview. They are a great digital marketing agency. And if you are in the Franklin, Tennessee area and need a place to record an interview or a podcast, they're great to work with. I'll get to the interview in just a moment. But I want to remind you that you can hear all of my episodes, even the ones that you've missed by visiting my website along the way dot media, or simply subscribing to along the way in your favorite podcast app. I'm also on Facebook and Instagram. And you can keep in touch with me by emailing John along the way@gmail.com. My social links and web address are in the show notes. I look forward to hearing from you. And now here is my along the way conversation with Patsy Claremont and Andrew Greer. With me today, I have Patsy Claremont and Andrew Greer, who's a good friend, and who's been a guest on the podcast before and he was such trouble last time that he has to have a babysitter this time. So that's why Patsy's here. That's good job. I'm just kidding.

You're not.

So I'm down here in Nashville on this trip. And Andrew said, Hey, you got to meet my friend Patsy. And so he told me a little bit about you that you guys do a radio program together. That is you're going to be turning it into a podcast as well called bridges. Before we get into the story of your life. Patsy, can you tell me a little bit about what bridges is all about.

But turns out that we really hit it off as friends, which is rather unique to many people, because he is a millennial, and I am a deep into the boomer stage kind of girl. And we problem that because we relate both of us have very wide circles of reference in regard to people, and we find it very natural. We found that a lot people didn't have that in their life. They stayed within the realm of their comfort. And so we wanted to help build some bridges generationally, would you like to add to that?

Well said quite beautifully by the old Boomer. I tried to refrain from calling of the old gal. But she refrains from calling me the dumb idiot. No, not at all. I think both of Patsy and myself throughout our lives have had multi generational relationships. Patsy and her family, which you met her son Jason here just a few minutes ago. We're using a studio right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And he's, you know, so he's and then they have grandkids, they all live under one roof. Okay,

and so with your seven, okay. Yeah. So that's a generational opportunity.

way to put it for sure. Very positive

island by myself. But I think we've always had I've always since I was a child, I loved my parents, friends I had I had peer friends and I loved I loved my parents friends. And I had connections even with the senior systems when I was a child 2030 years ago, you know. And so I think there was built in within me appreciation for that too, by my parents. But what I remember thinking even early on was, I just thought the stories that came from generations that had lived more life than I had lived, were so potent with information, number one, but number two lessons. And I didn't experience the older generations ever in a wag your finger, I'm going to teach you something when they just shared and by nature of listening, I learned so much. But I also discovered that they really they asked questions they want to know about me too, I never felt talked down to. And so I've had a wonderful experience. And I think our world our culture, not just within the church, but without the church could really benefit from listening. Number one, absolutely. And number two, paying attention to people of all generations, all ages, because there's just a wealth of wisdom. Yeah.

And I think one of the things that has really caught my attention in Scripture is that the Lord often asked, when he already knew, but he would ask to put people in the position of having to find their answers. And so I think by asking, it's a whole other kind of education we can benefit from if we give the right question to the person for their own introspection, and we ask the right ones for our benefit. So I think there's a lot of bridging of years and learning experiences,

and will you naturally connect people you naturally connect with right? Patsy? Looks pint sized and pleasant. But she, she is pleasant, but she's also very mischievous. Okay. And I think that's within my spirit to you know, they're there are the things that transcend generations as well, you know, we do have a vast amount of differences. But we also have a great many alikes, right? So there was a natural pool, we did not know each other when we first met, which is an obvious statement.

I was a child and I was

Yeah, I'm a well of things. So when we met, we didn't not have a lot of context with one another. Okay, her children a little bit. And there was a very natural connection from the very beginning. It's it's good to, I think it's a gift. I think that's a spiritual gift. Yeah, our natural country excellence with other people. And no, that's not everybody we can respect and love everyone. But where we naturally connect with others is something to pay attention to. Because I think that's where maybe God has something in store for us. Maybe we learn something about his character,

his attention to us. Well, in a world that's so divided and so divisive. You know, if we can focus on the things that we do agree on the things that are like, it helps build a common ground so that whenever those things are different, we can respect those a little bit better.

Well, we both love reading books. So that's one of our shared spaces. He will borrow from my library file confiscated book from his will share ideas we don't always agree and then he like spooky stuff. I'm not as my chin did back, but we have other

work for it

is true. Yes. Stephen King didn't go far with her.

I love music. I'm not musically inclined. And Darian drew gave me as a gift that which did not help bridges.

A little ukulele. Okay, I love that ukulele. But it doesn't play all by itself. It needs.

I have not yet conquered that. I'm still working on you our mind sunshine. Okay.

Yes, that third quarter of the three that?

Yes. That's great. So in your in your radio program, which is going to be a podcast soon. What are the things like what do you talk about? What are what's the show?

There's, you know, too many topics we're not willing to go after if we don't have any background in it. We have wonderful guests who come in and are willing to help us out like Cindy Morgan and Janice.

Sylvia's. Right. And she the waltz was on and yeah, our friend Sandy Patty and my dad. Yeah, that's right. therapist, so he had

being Andrews dad is great, but having a

mantle. Yeah,

it bores some suspicious.

therapists who really?

Yeah, I think, you know, we thought about this theme of bridges and liberty, thinking about physical bridges that connect us from one place to another that are a necessity. For me think about this podcast along the way, like a necessity for seeing different perspectives for meeting different people for experiencing new things. bridges are part of that in our everyday life, right. Without bridges, we would still be a very disconnected world. So that's kind of the idea, what are the kinds of conversations we can have that would act as bridges between generations and I do think topically, within the culture of Christianity, especially I think, in our western world, or maybe even American evangelical world, I'm not sure how to totally segment that. But it was difficult, or maybe just not always encouraged to talk about the heavier situations in life, which everyone is experiencing at some point. Absolutely. Right. And then for me to have a wealth of wisdom with someone like Patsy, who has, again, a few more years ahead of me living through those situations and circumstances, even if they're not the same ones, but the things that have tested and tried her, and then seeing some of the result of that both good and bad. Gives me just like you were saying, before we started a whole new one, it gives me hope you have because she's still here, you know, and so sometimes when you're in the thick of it, you're wondering, will I get through this, you know, I mean, things are that heavy, and then to give people permission to talk about things in it not take their spirituality away for it not to take the discipleship away, for not to take Jesus away. He talking about Jesus walking along the path with us. I truly believe that is I don't, nothing separates us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus, absolutely nothing. I really do believe that. So there's a lot of other details in life, but nothing can separate us. When we bridge the generational gaps with conversation. I think it affirms that, yeah,

and I've had a lot of fun studying some of the bridges, learning about how they were built in when they were built. And one of the bridges that came to my mind was the bridge between lower Michigan and the Upper Peninsula, which is what brought my husband and I together, he lived on my way up on one side, and I lived way down on the other side. So in the state of Michigan, we were 600 million miles apart. And we met in a little tiny ghost tone in the Upper Peninsula. And the bridge was the Mackinac Bridge. Okay, that allowed us to meet each other. And we've been married now for 57 years. So it's working. We have great hopes for the future.

Yeah. So do you talk about specific bridges? like actual

bridges on the show? Oh, that's Yeah, we've talked about that one. It's amazing to think you've been married 57 years as a 49 year old. Time I. Yeah, we talked about one bridge. I can't remember the name of it. And some of them are the weirdest names. Oh, yeah. They are fascinating bridges. Really. Patsy? Is the better researcher. She finds these amazing bridges. And but one of them is a glass bridge was in in China. Class bottom?

Yeah. The bottom of his class. Yeah. You see the show little videos with people just screaming?

Oh, my gosh. So laid out. I don't know if I could go on that one.

Oh, you know, that's my first like, I'm like, please. And yeah, I mean, I have, I don't think I have a fear of heights. But I do feel if I'm very high up, I get my backpacking excursions in the mountains or whatever. If I'm really close to an edge that's really high. This doesn't pertain to the conversation, but I feel the urge to fly

to fly. So we'll keep Andrew away.

For one time, I said, Don't you feel that urge just to jump? I mean, knowing in reality that that's not feasible if you want to live? And he was like, No, not at all.

You're not alone? I had those thoughts.

Yeah, it's not dark thoughts. It's just

like, could I could I survive this little fall?

Yeah, well, indeed, I don't think we could.

And that's where the wisdom.

Absolutely, absolutely. So Patsy, what have you learned from Andrew?

Well, I've learned he makes great is that salsa? Yeah, yeah, great homemade salsa?

Well, I am, he gives me great hope for the younger generation. Because when you get to the age that I'm at, I'm in my 70s, I won't say how deep I'm committed to it. But let's say it's to my knees. And you can get strategy, you can begin to sound like a lot of people who are going over the younger generation, there's got nothing going on good for them. And someone like into comes along, and you see how innovative he is and how kind he is, and how he uses his gifts to honor the Lord. And for an older person, we think, oh, maybe I need to take another look. And that's what I'm hoping the broadcast will do is cause people to take another look to go back over a bridge and the open to relationship with someone that you might have thought I'm too old for them, and instead say, I wonder what in our sharing, we could bring to the table for each other?

And Andrew, what what have you learned from her to piggyback off that, I mean, I think to respect someone of a different generation and older generation partially is to trust, the experience that is coming, the words coming out of their mouth, trust those even when I don't always resonate with them, because I think in my place life, and john, you and I are mainly peers, then it's easy to kind of believe I have some element control, we still have a lot of control of our bodies, we still have a lot of control over our just where with all you know, we're kind of in that center point of life, physically and mentally. But the truth of the of the matter is we never are one fully in control. That's just a part of our spiritual conviction. And then it's also a part of reality of facing reality that even when we feel that I've got this all within the I've got this within my means and resources. I don't and so therefore, if I'm in relationship with someone like Patsy, when it shows itself when it reveals itself to me that I am indeed not in control, which circumstances will do that, that are outside of my control. I'm not at a total loss of being like, wait, I thought I had this all together. There's someone who's on my side, who is saying, Well, you know, there's been plenty of times when I know and you know what, actually right now knee deep in this decade of my life, speaking to me, here's the things I cannot control no matter what. And so I think it renders a sort of peace and a sort of perspective that offers peace. But specifically, I have learned to trust kind of the pace of Patsy as far as I can trust because Patsy's had a long career and had a really rewarded career. Lots of audiences, lots of tempo to your career. One point in time being gone much of the year traveling, we understand similar lifestyles, and she has found a pace in that. And she's also learned from the maybe unhealthy paces of portions of her life. That's very helpful for me, because I'm a I love opportunity, or I love experiences. And I could do that to the detriment of my health. So it's helpful to which then is to the detriment of really people around me too.

Yeah. So she helps you find focus?

Yeah, I think focus and I'll say socially speaking about, like, culturally speaking, I can be a pretty loose cannon. As far as I'm just a hugger. I just want to hug people. Whatever you are, whoever you are, come here. And I think that's okay. I think I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I can sometimes have very undefined perspectives or opinions about things. And I think that's okay, too, at times. But I need a little bit of a bumper on my bowling lane, you know, like to be like, well, yes. But this naturally is unhealthy in this way. And this is, and it just shapes my perspective. Does that make any sense? A little bit? See the bumper, you know, it's it's good to hear someone who's solid in what they think about things. It's based on not just their opinion, but on their experience Exactly. Where I'm still basing a lot of things just on opinion. Yeah.

So it seems that you guys have definitely benefited from the relationship that you guys

want to run any other. Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you for saying that. our listeners wouldn't have seen that. But yeah, we've already done an interview with Andrew for along the way. And he's taught talks about his musical journey. But Patsy, I want to, I want to hear about your journey of how God has been walking with you along your life.

Well, it's hard to put it in a little message. And the reason for that is I've lived so many years, and the Lord has presented himself to me in many different ways. And I've needed that, because I've gone through a lot of difficult places. I've also had the great joy of being in ministry, on platforms, with people seeing him change their hearts, and that's been thrilling, and life giving to me. But in the hardest stage, those that would have been in my 20s. And believe it or not, I can read still remember that was when I was at one I had Agra phobia, but I didn't know it had a name, right. It wouldn't be until I was out of the home and functioning again, that I would find out that I had a title that I had never claimed. Yeah, but I found that I was struggling with fears that were irrational, and that they were multiplying and that they were demanding my energies and that they were a halting any progress of development. For me, I was not growing or changing or enjoying life, I was becoming very inward, introspective in the worst kind of. And I found that I was surprised after a while to leave my home. Because I was afraid I would have an anxiety attack. I was being rushed to the hospital pretty regularly for my anxiety attacks. Because I didn't know what they weren't, I thought I was driving. And so my husband would rush me and they would give me a shot of Demerol knock me out. I would wake up at home hours later, not knowing what had happened to me not understanding that there were other people that struggled. I thought I was the only one who was going through this and it was going to take my life. So I was very frightened. I was very fear based. I have a vivid imagination, and it was taking me in all the wrong direction. And so the changes began when I woke up one day, and I realized how I had gone from being a fairly normal quote unquote, kind of person I thought, I realized No, I was never normal. And I realized that I was now a hostage in my home. And I had not only withdrawn from society, and withdrawn into my home, I had withdrawn into my bed at night that Now where do you go? If things get worse than they are now? What will you do? And I thought they'll have to lock me away somewhere, was at that moment, I prayed a prayer of relinquishment. In the past, I had been praying up, trust me, I've been praying,

you were already a Christian. When this was happening,

I was in people expect me to say I was agoraphobic, I met the Lord knows Wow. But I met the Lord. And then I became an agoraphobic and that didn't make any sense. Because I'd read where it said, I've come to give you life and that more abundantly. This was not an abundant life. So I was very confused by all of that. And so at that point, when I realized, what was I going to do, instead of telling God how to run his business, which is what I had been doing, I've been saying, I don't know why you haven't done this, and you need to do that. And could you fix this and good, you make me Well, in the night while I'm resting so I could wake up, right? Just, that's how I thought it should work. If I say to the Lord, I love you, then he in return should show his love by making me well. So I was making God up. I wasn't learning who he was, was through the reliability of the Word of God. But I was deciding through my neediness who I wanted him to be. And in that moment, when I realized I had nowhere else to go, I said to him, I'll do whatever you ask of me. And in the moment, I said that I heard a mass me something, and not in an audible voice. But in that still small voice of the heart. Yeah. And what I heard him say, of course, is not what I want. He said, make your bed. And I thought, make my bed. I'm telling you. I'm pouring out my heart here. I'm in big trouble. I need you to help me. And I heard it again, make your bed. And I that that makes no sense sense to me. First of all, I'm in it, and then I went, Oh, yeah. So there's a start, step out of that. And then when I stepped out of it and looked at the bed, I remembered asking in my head, do I have to make both sides because I only slept on this side, you know who slept over there? And shouldn't he made both sides every morning. And I thought, well, now this is a waste of time because I need to be well, and you are giving me this small assignment. It would take quite a long while of studying the Word of God and learning how to appropriate appropriate it that I would understand that when you're faithful in little things, that's when they'll give you more. And when you're faithful and more this when he'll give you much. And I wasn't willing to be faithful and little. And I was shouting for more and much I wandered off the morn muchness side. Yeah. And he's going make your bed. Yeah.

So it kind of reminds me of the story in the Bible where the one general was told to go wash himself in the Jordan River because he had leprosy. And he went to the prophet and I think it was the last year told him go dip yourself in the Jordan seven times. And he said, What about these rivers over here? You know, what about these these rivers and Syria or wherever he came from? They're much cleaner, they're better. And God has a way of doing things that he wants us to submit our will to his and so that's a kind of reminded me of that in your story.

Yeah, that point of relinquishment, is really, incredibly helpful when you're wanting to make change. If you want to make a change in you really mean it, then get down to business. And it's at that point, you say I give up my rights. And I will assume my safety in the care of your plan. And safety was a huge issue for me, because I was so frightened.

What were you afraid of

everything, everything. I was afraid of storms, I was afraid of riding in cars. I was afraid of people. I was afraid of people who argued I was afraid of loud noises. I mean, it I was afraid to doctors and hospitals. And it just went on and I was afraid of medication even though I there were a lot of people like to give me some I remember when I was having those shots a demo, my husband said I should we should let me dig some of that home with me.

Wow. So you started making your bed,

I started making my bed and I thought, Well, I'm not in my bed, what am I gonna do and I thought I heard him save the dishes. What happened was I began to put my home and order physically. And the more physical moves I made to order my home, the more I felt I could deal with some of the disorder inside of me. And I was getting help with that through the console of his word as I read it and read it and read it. And I would read a chapter and I would think well, that is really a good chapter, but I don't get it. And then I'd read it again. And I think well, I still don't get it. And then I realized he didn't ask me to get it. He asked me to obey it. And when I obeyed it, I began to get it. Oh, I see when you say love your enemy. And I'm mad at my husband. And I deliberately go do something kind for him in a changes the way we relate and the atmosphere RMB are home that you work through your work. Wow.

And so you just gradually got healed you over a process.

Yes, he began bringing people into my life first by telephone because I wasn't going. And then gradually his trust Bill 10. They made me feel accepted as broken as I was. And they included me in things like Bible study. I just couldn't get enough of it.

And so you started writing books is that what happened next, or you

know, I started selling boxes. Funny, I opened a little bookstore in my home. That way I could read them before I sold them. So I could never eat dinner and read a book at the same time said get spaghetti on pages. And people don't like that when they're buying a new book,

you have sell the discount rack,

I became known God's little book key. Because I would be invited to go to ladies groups and tell them at local churches about these books that I had in my store. And now my store was one little tiny bedroom with shelves. And books that I had got on consignment. Okay, so now I would sell those at first read them, then sell them. And because I read them, I was enthusiastic about our content. So I couldn't wait to tell people. And God used people in books to help change my life. Wow.

So you got invited to come just speak about your little bookstore? And basically, and it was like a sales thing, a sales page after books.

Yes, I was so excited about the books. And I couldn't wait to make people aware of what was in each one. So that when they made us like chin, it fit their needs. Because I was on a limited budget, actually, zero budget. And I knew that it was life giving for me and I wanted people to be able to have the right selection.

So then how did you start writing?

Well, I first after being selling books, I was invited then to do speaking Oh, so I became a speaker long before I became a writer. But always in my heart. I carried a shelf of books. Yeah. Because I was continued to be a reader and I everywhere I went, I would tell people, you know, wouldn't help you with that when they would come up afterwards and say, Well, I'm really struggling with communication with my husband Chuck swindled just wrote a book on that very topic. You know, I couldn't wait to tell people

you were Google before Google existed.

Yes, I was a walking talking Google ephedra. There was

still, I still do recommends many things and many good things. And we'll follow up later and say, Now did you like that? She's tailoring the taste you

should see. So she's Google with accountability. Yeah. Yeah, there's a parameter. So you went from not even being able to leave your bed to now you're speaking in front of people. God's done an amazing work in your life.

He has, but it didn't come easy. And he was so merciful, because in the beginning was, you know, a few ladies and a Bible study. Then it was a few ladies at a church meeting locally. And then it was ladies at another time church in the next town and my husband would take me or a girlfriend would go with me. And so it was gradually growing me into a position of being able to speak to as many people as he asked me to. So with my years at women of faith, we spoke to over 5 million women in the 20 years. That's a lot

of little Bible studies.

A lot of Bible studies. So the first time that we walked in, the women of faith team locked into

endorsement with

Sheila Walsh, Marilyn me, Berg, Barbara Johnson at that time, she was a huge hit with the ladies. Thelma wells.

These are the originals, right?

Yes, he's when he sees when doll who was another big hit

through the years moved through many, many, many.

There were many back in and now through the system, but the original team. And so we when we went to our first arena event, we stepped into the arena was Barbara marrow and myself. And I'm not sure who the fourth one was that we were standing together. And we were looking out at this vast building. And when we looked back, we were all crying was overwhelming. did think that we would be like a little ant on this stage in this huge arena surrounded wrapped around in people. And it was thrilling. But it was also need knocking. Because and then suddenly we've got four cameras morose. And so we're having to learn how to work with cameras and how to work with the audience. Did your fear try to come back? every week, every week? Do you know did this day I have to be positioned in my mind, I have to draw from the well a scripture that helped me to find my way out of the terror that I once lived in. I've never gone back to where I once was. But I have had seasons that have been more difficult than others. I feel so much more prepared to deal with the bullying of fear. And I know that fear has friends, like anger. And so if I'm starting to get too feisty, too difficult to verbal, too sharp, too harsh. Those are signs I I better back off because I'm heading in a direction that isn't safe for me. So because to go there and to indulge in that kind of emotional throw that what happens is it stirs up all that anxiety. Yeah. And so I can afford that. It's like learning how to put boundaries on anything. I have to have boundaries on my emotions. And also my thought life that I'm getting highly negative, I have to go back in remember that mindset on the spirit is life and peace. Yeah. So I have to deliberately set my mind.

So did you have Do you have people that help you kind of identify when you're kind of getting close to those boundaries?

I have kids.

I have friends.

And number of my friends are therapists, which I think is hysterical. They're drawn to me. I think they think now here's a case.

Project, but

I'm a project All right. So I benefit from my family and friends. Being able to say you know, you're good and kind of cranky for them. That's all they're thinking. But for me the stories deeper, it goes all the way back to a past where I allowed my emotions to dictate my choices. And that's how I got into mental health problems. And my friend Marilyn Mayberg has a little saying that I just loved man, his emotions don't have brains, and that we can't allow our emotions to think for us, because God didn't design them to be thinkable. He designed them for our feelings. And a feeling can be there one minute and gone the next. And so we have to be willing to use the mind he gave us set it in the direction of what we know to be true. And then walk in that direction.

So you've taken your experiences, and you've written some books that are pretty funny.

Wow, says no.

playful for such a heavy in a dark background. But humor was part of what brought me out. But the humor was a burst in sarcasm, okay. And so sarcasm is just anger that's gone underground and come back up in a clown suit.

So, description of sarcasm.

So so people will laugh at sarcasm, but often it's because they're so uncomfortable. That that they're, it's their insecurity that's responding we, we can laugh at me easily. When we know that that wasn't the right thing to say or a good thing to say or a kind thing to say. So I had to have the anger removed from the humor. So the humor, I might use it against myself, but not against someone else. Yeah.

Which is tricky. And our I think current cultural stay right. We have a very biting humor. I have a very biting tongue. So I have to, and I think some sarcastic things can be very funny. I think they're probably funny in private. Without the no in the sense of and maybe they're never edifying, they find identifying for me either even in private to laugh at something because they're usually at the expense.

And that's my guidelines. It's right there. If it's at the expense of another person's dignity. It isn't funny, and it doesn't matter who's my ops. People can laugh, but if it's at the expense of another person, then I feel that we've crossed a line. Yeah. But and certainly for myself, I know I've crossed a line when I go to them.

Yeah. So you've spoken in front of some really large audiences. And you've written a lot of books, if you could look back at your life, and just kind of point out where you didn't realize Jesus was walking with you. But you look back and you say, oh, wow, he was right there this whole time. And I just didn't see it at that moment. I want to learn from an experience like that in your life, so that I don't miss those opportunities.

Well, we were discussing the protein caveman, about the road and the disciples saying later afterwards, say value that our hearts not burn with us. And I remember, I have one brother, one sister, my brother was nine years older, my sister is 13 years younger. So we're what you call a space age family, same mom and dad, just very slow. So within nine years between my brother and I, we had a chance to bond his brother and sister, were by the time our sister came along. My brother already had two and a half children. And so he was not feeling

good. I have

a sister. He said, it feels like one of my kids. So but she and I were under the same roof for a number of years. So we were able to bond. So I'm the middle child, but with such distance I function like a firstborn, with some detriment. So but the call came that my brother, who at that time, was 38 years old, was in a serious car accident. And some hours later, actually was a couple days later, he died. They had him on life support when the life support was taken off. He he was gone. He left behind six young children. And so I have the ability to take on everybody's pain not to handle it well, just to take it. So I'm an absorber. Okay. My nutritionist used to say about me, you absorb everything. So I'm an absorber. And I was carrying the weight of all this. I was feeling on the edge of despair. Here are six children. I watched each one walk up to the casket and put their favorite thing in there for their dad. It was heartbreaking. Yeah, his favorite. They put his favorite fishing pole, his favorite pipe, they put their favorite cross. Each of them brought different items, and then they think of others and go get them like that pretty soon, they wouldn't be a bowl lip that casket. But it was a very important for them to have some way to express their, their last words of love to their dad. And it was it was just breaking my heart. And I called up a friend and I said, I am bleak. I'm feeling helpless. And I'm close to hopeless. And she said, Well, I'm busy today I got laundry do. I said I don't think you heard me. I don't care about your laundry. You get in your car and come over right now. So she did. And she brought her Bible. And she began to read to me from Psalms 27. And as she read the first verse, I'd that, no, that's not it, I was looking for something that would bring me hope. And the second verse that wasn't in, we're down to the, you know, the 10th verse. And that's not it. And I thought, why shouldn't add or come over. And she shouldn't be reading that Psalm. And where's the hope. And then she got to the last two verses. And I would have despaired unless I believed I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living and my way. That's it. That's it, say it again. Now say it again. Now say it one more time. And I thought I would have despaired unless I would believe that I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. And I thought he has a heart for the widow and not orphans, he can come alongside them in ways I'd never be able to, and he can meet them in their greatest loss. And I can trust him with what he's doing through all this sad part of our family story. And there was something that came alive in that those verses that was like, it was burning in my heart. And my dad, this is truth. And this is for me in this moment in regard to our family. So

would you consider that like a life verse Now that you've held on to ever since then

I've certainly offered it to a lot of people who were feeling I could tell on the edge of their own despair. And, and sometimes it has been just what they needed. And other times it's been something else that's spoken more to them. We never know what's going to speak to any one person. And so we offer what we know.

And God has a way of filling in those blanks and making sure that the right verse gets to the right person at the right time. That's right, yeah. If you could go back in time, and visit yourself at a younger age, and give yourself a piece of advice. What would that advice be? What's going on in your life at that time that you want to interact? Right then?

Yeah, I think if I would go back, I would tell myself to chill, chill, sweetheart, you are way too tight. And you need to be more tender and generous with this loving husband you've been given I you jump too quickly to conclusions, you're harsh in ways that are not helpful to relationship. I think that's what I what was going on was a lot of spanning a lot of disagreeing over things that did not matter and still do not matter. And so letting the little things go and concentrating on the bigger call in life, which is to extend the love of Christ.

She has trouble articulating this.

Oh, and I would tell her not to talk so much.

That's, that's good. I got a process that I can't wait to put this episode together. So I can hear from that because I grow so much as a person from these conversations that I've been having along the way. And this isn't just something that I'm doing to create a podcast program. It's something that I feel like God wanted me to do to grow as a person grow as a man of God, and grow in relationship. Thank you for spending some time with me to do that today.

Oh, I absolutely

love that you've made it very safe. Thank you. Thank you. Do you

have any books that you would recommend that have? Obviously you've been a professional book recommender? What would you recommend for me now that we've talked for about an hour? So is there a book that you would recommend for me?

Well, I think I would have to know a little bit more of where what your heart is seeking right now. To be able to answer that in a way that would fit in to what you're looking for. Because we're all looking for things. We're all looking for a better day, we're looking for the right person, we're looking for the right job we're looking for, who am I going to be when I grow up, I got worried about that one that came to me the other day, I thought you've run out a calendar. Found it by now you're in big trouble, but I think it has to do with the ukulele later. So the traveling

there's so many books in the world, that it is mind blowing. But when you start bringing it down to men who have written for men in ways that changed lives, I think of Eugene Peters, I think of shorn Kirk, a guard I think of CS Lewis. But here's what I think is important to mix in with all of that. And that's Mac slick Kato because of his tenderness. I think every man needs to have a good fill of Max because he walks in sandals. You know, when he writes, he doesn't stop all and he doesn't knock down doors. He comes in quietly and makes an impact. And I think it's brilliant. And women are so drawn to Max's books. Max was one of the Pew speakers male speakers that women of faith brought back again and again, because they knew they could trust him to be kind in his presentation with that many women. So I mean, there were times our audience was 20,000, or 22,000. It went all the way up to 25,000 was I think our largest, but max knew how to speak with honoring women and speaking in ways that women could receive. So I think every man and his library should have some max.

Yeah. Do you have a recommendation for first one to look at? Oh, whoa,

you can't go wrong with anything he's written. Every time I read one, I think what do you do this? I mean, it's amazing. It's his giftedness calling. Yeah, certainly. But he just his his words are stunning. And I think the level of kindness that rests on them is something that God has ordained for him, that he might put his hand in the page. And that page might press truth in in a way that's easy to receive.

Yeah. So you can't go wrong with any of his books. That's great. Now,

I would say okay, well, I think one of his kindest ones is one of his older ones, called No wonder they call him the Savior, which is probably 30 years ago. And I remember my mother gave that to me when I went to college. And I remember her writing in the front of it made Jesus the Christ always be near to your heart. And I think that book does a really wonderful job, as Patsy is talking about Max's giftedness, and painting a picture of Jesus the Christ in a way that I had not experienced up until then. You know, so there's one. He also just released one about the promises of God and it goes through 12 promises, and a kind of practical way, you know, but he's not a practical rider. I mean, he's a, he's very artistic. So it doesn't feel like it's not, too but it's a know you're going to get it but yet he's putting a lot of practicality in there. He's a big man to walk into a room of 25,000. Women period. So he's a very courageous man. He's tender and courageous.

He's funny, he

is laughing.

Not wear Yes. slap your knees silly. But where are you? You just feel like you're glad you're there to receive from such

a person. Yeah, that's something that I definitely want people to feel like when they're around me is that they feel like they've been around Jesus, because they've been around me. Just like I'm feeling around this table talking with you. He's pointing to Patsy. But seriously, I'm I appreciate your story, and the willingness to share that and I can't wait to spend some time processing this even more. As we're wrapping up. I want to hear a little bit more about bridges and how people can listen to that. And when it's going to be in a podcast, everything.

So our podcasts were released the beginning of 2020. We had the opportunity with moody that is based out of the southeast region to kind of we had a relationship. Well, Patsy has a long relationship with moody all over. I have a close relationship with Moody, that is Moody Bible Institute and moody radio, which is Moody Bible Institute. Well, I don't know how that parcels out, but you get it. I was filling in for the morning. Segment like Dr. Time, which who knows what the world I was doing, because except that I can talk at length without any prompting. So it worked. But I had Pat's, Pat's he was very generous to comment a few friends to help me fill the morning spot. Because media is talk radio, you're not playing a bunch of songs, they really want to hear people talk and think and all that stuff. So Scott thunder, the general manager, who produces some of their shows, heard our segment and was like, my goodness, y'all should do radio. And so that's what first inspired it. And we were able to record a series of episodes for moody. And Patsy here decided she wanted to get her heart worked on. And she had open heart surgery earlier this year.

You're not talking about another emotional thing you're talking about

know she did all that work. And then yeah, but um, so as she went through that process, we took a little hiatus and then that hiatus from the show. And as she's been revving back up, we feel like podcasts is such a wonderful as you know, format to be able to speak up length, without timestamps, all the conversations we had for the media, moody portions were much longer than we could include. And so we look forward to Yeah, releasing that as a podcast where it can live, like yours and a little more longer format. Yeah. And get people just more of what they want, which is us talking. Yeah, definitely.

So what are you looking forward to for this bridges podcast?

Well, I enjoy working with Andrew, he makes me laugh. And at this stage of my life, Lord knows I need to lie. I, he also challenges me to think. And I need to make sure that I keep my brain cells as connected as possible. Yeah. And so anytime there's two of them that are on speaking terms, I'm pretty happy. So I'm looking forward just to working with him. Because we have a very natural and comfortable way of being able to relate and talk and not take each other's time and yet be there for the other one when they need some support. So that's probably the biggest thing except we want it to mattered. We want to bring some answers because we're living in times that our people are insecure and suspicious. They are both feeling mistrustful. And they're feeling really intimidated by what's next. Everything seems to be out of control. And so we would like to bring some words of hope and inspiration and some music guy and I love Andrews music as well.

And and the levity that she was speaking about earlier in her own catalogue of books and speaking is so important because I do think we to reiterate what Patsy saying we live in a culture at least that is perceived as really heavy, I think every in all of human population. I mean, since the beginning of time of humanity, there has always been heaviness. It's it's the thing we've had to learn to figure out and the thing that we continue to open up our palms and look up, you know, and go, really what do we do with this? You know, where are you? It's the it's where is the along the way? Right? So we've always had that question we've always had the the heaviness of being within this flesh and bone. And yet we're eternal people created in the image of God, there's all that so levity, you know, laughter, being laugh, being able to laugh at ourselves, being we have the comfort where we you can laugh at one another with one another and, and not be at one another, I think. And I think for people to learn how to laugh, we're very afraid to laugh with one another, nowadays be politically correct culture. I even expect I'm one of the least respectful people there is. And yeah, I find myself really being cautious to laugh at certain things that are truly funny, and that I don't think are at the expense of someone. And they're not born out of a heart of anger or frustration or prejudice or anything. And yet, it can be very difficult to laugh. So I think the example of that, and I think it can be examples, because we're respecting one another. I think it's especially important for me to example that in our dynamic, because I'm the younger of the two to say this is I can both respect my elder, which I think is still very important, culturally around the world. Yeah, but that we can also talk, you know, that we can talk openly, and we can laugh about the things that, indeed are funny about life. Life is funny. Absolutely. And I think there'll be some belly laughter. In Actually,

I would be I would be disappointed if there wasn't,

yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm expecting it. As soon as wherever I meet God, however, that looks the picture that, you know, they'll, they'll be, he'll be laughing at me, I think, oh, me, too.

So you already have some episodes ready, but we're releasing them in in podcast form.

Yeah, so we've had some really great guests. And we look forward to some more. And it really just people who are thoughtful about life, about God, and about the intersection of all those things. And to do respect the generations, I think people who only interact within their peer group, okay, maybe that's because of their job, or their church setting or whatever. If we only interact within our peer group, there's a certain zest of life that is lost a little bit, and I actually find it with my friends group. Some of my friends who may be are mainly interacting within our peer group, they tend to be a little more serious about life. And they also tend to struggle with a lot more anxiety and fear. And I think that's just simply because they don't have some people around them to offer some bigger, wider perspective, fear and anxiety is normal. But for it to become crippling, I think sometimes that's that very myopic, you know, perspective. So I'm always telling if I have a friend who's experiencing anxiety, which I have experienced myself, I go talk to someone 40 years older than you just for fun. Yeah, you know, you find that you will survive.

I know when I was going through some anxiety and depression. Few years ago, I knew that my natural thing that I wanted to do was to turn inwards and focus on myself and push the world out. Once I realized that that's what I naturally wanted to do in my flesh. I said, I'm not going to do that. So I started going TO to connection groups at my church. One on Monday, one on Wednesday, on Tuesday, I joined a kickball league and adult kickball league. How crazy is that? But I love it. I've been doing it now for three years. And I play on now Monday and Tuesday nights with two different teams. And it's not a Christian thing. But I've been able to make some really great friends with that. And so I'm doing church things and doing things with friends that are athletic. And it really helped me kind of

know, myself. Yeah, yeah, there. It's It's not wrong to do some introspection, it's wrong to get lost in your very good, and to get stuck in it. But relational Lee, it is good to keep your community wide. People often ask me, Well, what do you think is a healthy number of people to have it friends? And I said, Well, if we look at at Jesus, he interacted with the multitude in spite his friends, were the 12 disciples out of the 12. There were three that he spent more time with than the others. And out of those three, there was one that was beloved. So it gives us not a law. But a suggestion. Yeah, that perhaps 12 is a huge number. If you're going to maintain the relationship and keep it healthy. If you're going to have the interaction of you're going to care about that person. Because people would say to me, Patsy, your turn to be friends with the whole world. You can't. You can't do justice to friendship. If it's everybody, you're gonna have to bring down your expectations, which was true and almost everything with my life. I'm just I was just a little over done.

Well, I've enjoyed having this conversation with you, Andrew and Patsy, I'm looking forward to hearing the full episodes of your bridges podcasts coming soon. Yeah, I'd like to continue on having conversations with you another time.

Wonderful. Yeah, glad to.

It was such a blessing to meet Patsy and hear her story of how God brought her through agoraphobia. I can't imagine the severity of her specific fear. But I've faced some of my own fears. In fact, I went through a season in my life, that I had to pray and rehearse Second Timothy one seven every morning in order to get out of bed to face my day. God has not given me a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind. Fear is not from God. And if it's not from God, we don't need to receive it. The things that God promised us is His power, His love and His sound mind. Sometimes the first step to overcoming fear. It says basic is getting out of bed. We don't need to stay as a prisoner in our own mind. We have the mind of Christ, start believing it, start acting like it. Remember, emotions, don't have brains. Don't let them think for you. If you aren't sure that you have the mind of Christ, there is a simple First Step. Make Jesus the Lord of your life. Follow him. Give your past, present and future to him and trust him with it. I guarantee you that he has a better plan for your life than you do. And read the Bible for yourself. Get his words in your mind and let it transform your heart. If you decide that you want to make Jesus the forgiveness of your past and the leader into your future, but need help with that, please reach out to me I'd be more than happy to talk with you about it. God told Patsy to make her bed and then to do the dishes. Those things don't sound spiritual. But making your bed is spiritual. Getting your house in order is spiritual. obedience to the little things is spiritual. When we are faithful and little God can trust us to be faithful in the much we don't have to understand God's Word to obey it. But when we obey it, we start to understand it. I love how Patsy phrase that it's so true. Patsy defined sarcasm as anger that has gone underground and come back up in a clown suit. Wow, that's convicting, we need to be careful with our words. There is power in the tongue. It can bring life or death. We never know what's going to speak to any one person. So we offer what we know. And make sure we do it in love. Patsy is a reader. And that's something that I'm trying to be. As I'm trying to become more of a reader. I want to share with you the advice that a good friend gave to me read three pages every day. I found that when you read three pages, you're more likely to read a fourth than a fifth, then a sixth and so on. Start small, but just read and consider. As always links and books recommended in this episode or in the show notes and keep an eye out for Patsy and Andrews podcast bridges coming in January 2020. It will be insightful and a lot of fun. Again, I want to thank Redbirds social for letting me use their studio to record this interview. And thank you for listening to along the way. If you've enjoyed joining me along my way, please share this episode with a friend who you think will be encouraged by this podcast. Also, please rate and review along the way on iTunes. That helps more people discover along the way. And subscribe to this podcast on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. And you can follow us on Facebook, Instagram and at my website along the way dot media. You can always email me at John along the way at gmail. com. I hope that you've enjoyed this part of my journey. And may you realize when Jesus is walking with you along your way