Searching for Patterns of Evidence - Timothy Mahoney's Journey AlongTheWay Ep 04

I had no doubts about the Bible until I got to Egypt and went to the locations where the events of the Bible were said to have happen. And when I got there, and I asked, Is there evidence for the Bible? Have you found evidence for the Israelites? And the Egyptologist said, so far, not so far not. I mean, I knew he had been there for like 30 years, and he hadn't found any evidence. Well, that was a crisis of faith in the making, for me.

Welcome to along the way. I'm John Matarazzo, your host and fellow traveler. Thank you for joining me on my journey as I try to become more like Jesus every day. I love when I have the opportunity to talk with fascinating people and learn how God has met them along their way. I believe that everyone has a story, and we can all learn from each other's journey. Through my work as a television producer, I get to interact with some of the most amazing people making an incredible impact for God's kingdom. In this episode of along the my journey connects me with filmmaker Timothy Mahoney.

It was a Saturday morning in September 2015. After a long week of work, and I was amusing myself by scrolling through my Facebook feed, I came across an advertisement for a film that looked intriguing. It posed questions about the historical evidence for the mass migration of the Israelites from Egypt known as the Exodus. Some scholars were saying that there is no proof. Well, others were saying that there is proof if you know when to look for it. I love learning about evidence that reinforces my Christian faith. So I dove further into the ad, and bought the film patterns of evidence, the Exodus. I had never heard some of this new evidence before. Proof of Joseph the slave who became the savior of Egypt, clues about the Israelites leaving Egypt after a series of plagues and evidence for the battle of Jericho, excitement rose in my chest. As I watched this documentary, following the filmmakers journey that has now spanned for more than 12 years, I knew that I needed to connect with Timothy Mahoney and have him on my TV show real life. He has now been on real life twice. And the last time he was with me, he was promoting his second patterns of evidence film, The Moses controversy. When he found out that they also make a podcast, he asked me if I would like to interview him. And I couldn't pass up the opportunity to find out more about what he has learned along the way. Here is that conversation. Tim, it's a pleasure to have you with me on this podcast. And it's

good to be on.

Could you just introduce yourself a little bit to our audience?

Yeah. Well, I'm Tim Mahoney. And I go by sometimes Timothy, because it sounded like it was more intelligent than just him. But, but I grew up in Minnesota, and my parents were they met at a Bible school. And so I ended up being the oldest, the first child in the family. And my my family I originally, my mother was a music teacher. And my father was a military came out of the military background, and he was going into the ministry, all these teams that he was thinking about, it didn't last too long. But he was a, like a part time pastor at a small church in Wisconsin. And so in this new film patterns of evidence, the Moses controversy, I actually tell a little bit about my story, which I hadn't been the first film that I made, patterns of evidence, the Exodus. But in this particular film, I share a little bit about why was it important for me to investigate the stories of the Bible. And it had to do with the fact of how I was raised. And so eventually, my so I was raised in a Christian home. And But sadly, my family, my folks divorced. And when I was about nine, when I was probably about nine years old, I was wanted sort of started to become clear to me that, you know, something was wrong. Yeah. And I ended up from they're going to tell us about 11 we ended up that when the family broke up, we, we had to kind of escape, you know, it was one of those sort of violence situations. And, and that caused caused me to become very serious about, about life. And because I saw some things that were, you know,

really difficult. And as an 11 year old, you kind of had to become the man of the house, I guess.

Yeah, I did. And I ended up.

I didn't really, I mean, my childhood sort of ended, you know, at that time, probably from the time I was nine ish to 11. That's when things became very serious. And then when my folks divorced, then the childhood was a bit over. Because I was the oldest I ended up having to be responsible to help my mom to watch the kids. My brother had a younger brother and two sisters. And I was bigger, older, more mature as a child. me know me. I guess it's the firstborn syndrome, right? Sure. But, so that caused me to, to be more serious about faith to I mean, I wasn't like, just when we went to church, my mother would go to church, almost whenever the doors are open. I think it was a place to go. That was besides just being at home. And she also played the piano. So she, she had to play for the services. So whatever, there was a church service, we were there. And then he had youth group and, and then you had the teen kind of youth group. And then you had like, we have a thing called royal Rangers. Okay, I remember that. Yeah. So I was a part of that. And so there's lots of reasons to go to church and there was another family called the Sandberg. And they were between our house in the church and they had five kids. So my mother, she had a big Chrysler and we ended up driving from our house right past December saw stopped open the door. Five of the Sandberg kids would get in the back of the seat of back of the car plus

arm for this is before seatbelt laws, I guess. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. I mean, that car was just filled with people. Yeah, I think they were as total, there would have been 11 of us. Car. Yeah. went to church.

So Church has always been something important for you.

Yeah. And I was with, you know, it is ages sort of worked out. And they will. Kirk Samara, who is my good friend, he was a couple years older than I was, but he liked playing the guitar. And I was interested in music and guitar. And so we ended up that was sort of we created this little band, we never really played anywhere. But we had this little music thing going on, which was a great hobby.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I'm into music myself, too. So I get that, especially at a younger age, it gives you something to do to keep your mind focused on something positive, which is, yeah,

it's good some place to aspire to.

Yeah. So what happened with your music

career? Well, you know, I learned to play an instrument called a pedal steel guitar. And in fact, I started with a Hawaiian guitar. And then you some people say, Well, how in the world, you start to do that, I somehow knew that at my church, there was lots of guitar players. And I was this young kid. And somehow, at that age, like about 1312, or 13, I realized that that I was going to not be able to play, if I played the same thing that everybody else played, you know, you can have only so many people strumming an electric guitar. So I ended up being attracted to a lap steel guitar, which nobody played. And then that led me to a pedal steel guitar. And I started playing and I in being young, I was able to train my ear. By the time I was 16, I was doing albums for you know, it's like a backup musician. On on records, I did my first album, and then that album actually got quite a bit of airplay in Twin Cities. Really, it was a song called I got Jesus, and he's got me. And it was really a great experience. So then I ended up becoming involved with bands, I was in like different bands. But I was still a scope of these are like college bands. And usually gospel country rock, that kind of thing. Interesting. So

how did you make the transition from music into film? Where that's, you're a filmmaker?

Yeah, now, right? Well, what happened was, was that I didn't think that anything about film, in fact, we didn't go to movies, we didn't even have a TV. Really, yeah, I grew up in a home that, you know, they didn't believe in going to movies. And it was very conservative. And when the TV broke, we didn't replace it either. So I used to like to go babysit, because when I got the kids about, I could watch TV, you know, Gunsmoke or something? And, but I didn't, I didn't really think about movies until I was 18 years old. And there was a movie that came out that I heard about by the Billy Graham Association, and it was called the hiding place. And so the hiding place was a story of a Jewish family, or actually, it was a Dutch family that were hiding Jewish people in their home. That's the name of hiding place. And the, the main character was owned by the name of Corrie 10. Boom. And you're probably familiar with it.

I read it when I was in high school. Yeah. And it was very impactful.

Yeah, it really was. And I saw I was 18 years old when I saw the story of the hiding place. And it was so powerful to be in a cinema. And then to actually hear the, the sound and being the, you know, the picture of the big screen and, and I just, I ended up going to that movie three times in one week, I was like, what, and that was at about 18, I just turned 18 when that that film came out. 1975. And that led me to once once I learned what movies where I go, I like to go back to another one movie, you know, and I started seeing different movies and and I thought that I was going to go into music. And I left home twice to play in music groups, gospel groups. And after traveling on the road, and sort of being, you know, away from home, I was with family music groups. Okay, but I wasn't you weren't a fan. I wasn't the family. It's one thing to be in a family Music Group and be one of the family members. It's another thing to be a family member. And it just was that what I just didn't feel the love. Yeah, you know, so we carried a lot of equipment. And, and I was hungry a lot when I was a teenager, you know, because it's all it was anyway, I decided to not be a traveling musician. And I think it was great that I was able to have all that experience in the recording studio, I you know, in concerts, and then on the road, and which then me to radio. And so a friend of mine, who I met was a station manager and a DJ, you have a popular station. And I when I got my license, I would drive down to the station and sit with him at the station. And, you know, just sort of being at a radio station with with all the tape, you know, it's back then the hell out of, you know, the tape and that carts with and just they actually had records to you know, I mean, okay, it was really something. And just the, just the sound of a deep voice, you know, in a microphone. And yeah,

that's, there's something so special about that. Yeah.

I loved it. I love the control room. I loved everything about that. And so I thought I'm going to go into radio. but ended up going to two years of Bible school first, which and I took an Associate of Arts degree, just a two year degree. And then I was going to go on to radio. And at that time, I'm on the movies, I hear an ad for a film school. And I don't know if they ever for whatever reason, somebody decided to put an ad for a film school on the radio. And I got the number wrote it down, and ended up going to that film school for one year. And that's I loved it. It was was the best year of college I had ever had.

Was it just a one year program?

No, it was a two year program. But I met my wife in the middle of it.

So that's, that's a good thing.

Yeah, I wasn't able to finish because I knew I really wanted to be married. And I had prayed about that. And that's when I met my wife, Jill.

She's a lovely woman. I've had the privilege of meeting her and yeah, yeah, so I would agree with that.

Yeah, we met probably over 41 years ago. And she came with me to a film lab. The first date I took her on, believe it or not, was because I was working on a student film. And I said, Would you let you know, would you mind going on some errands and we'll go get, like breakfast or something. And so I found that interesting. And we ended up making we fell in love. I proposed to her. And we got married within a year. Wow. And we made a film for the wedding. Really? It was a 16 millimeter film called The marriage covenant. And you still have that? We do? Yeah, it's 22 minutes long. And what I did is I got a tape recorder. And I just sat down and we talked about subjects. Like we brought out MIT, you know, and I just voice to voice over the subjects. And she she and I reflected on what does it mean to be married? As if we would know anything as you know, young kids? I was 21. She was 20. And and what does it mean to have a covenant? What does a covenant mean? What is the marriage covenant? And, and then I, I rented a horse and a suit of armor. And, you know, I did these recreation scenes, which were you know, I also had a Canadian Mounted Police, you know, outfit. And so she dressed up in costumes. And we we did these sort of romantic little scenes comedy. And, like when I gave her the when I wrote up to her as a knight in shining armor when I leaned over to give her the roses, I fell off the horse. And was that planned? It was planned. Okay. And I managed and I heard myself that's too bad. That's it. You know, it's a lot further down than you think you're on a horse.

Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah, that's a that's interesting. So I'm very curious. When you look back at what you thought of marriage as a 21 year old, and you look back at it now you've been married for almost 41, over 40 years. Now, you're 40 years now, when you look back at what you thought as a 21 year old? What do you think? What did? What did you have? Right? What did you you like, man, we were we were stupid.

You know, because I grew up in divorced home, I so did not want to be in another divorced relationship. So I really thought about it pretty seriously. And I had prayed. And I really believe that we were supposed to we were the right couple. And because of that experience growing up, I think we were pretty much on target. But I might have known it from my head. But I had no clue what it meant in real life. I think that for a lot of us we have I think there's like a drawing to something like there's like a gravitational pull in directions. And that gravitational pull life for me was in music. And then I thought radio, and then film became and I think ultimately it was that I was felt the desire to tell stories. But I think the other thing was to have family and to be a part of a family. And I didn't want to be married to the wrong person. And I wanted to, to find a person because I felt that having the right person would help me become the person that I felt I was supposed to be become. Yeah, I just didn't know who that person was. You know, I mean, I liked history. I liked storytelling. And when I look back on it now I can see the reasons why I'm making films that investigate the historical credibility of the Bible. But I wouldn't have thought that that would be what would have happened. But I can see why it happened.

Yeah. You just mentioned about the making films about the credibility of the Bible. And that's what originally drew me to you and how we've gotten to know each other a little bit. You've been a guest on my program, real life, your work on patterns of evidence, the Exodus, which I saw a couple years ago, really, really impacted me you're speaking about a really, you're not just the one speaking about it, you're investigating? And you are you have questions, and you're going to different people that have different answers, and you're trying to weigh those things. And your work in the in the exodus is phenomenal. And now you have the Moses controversy. How did you get started in in this film investigation?

Yeah, I had made some other films. Prior to this. I had been doing series with different Bible, teachers or scholars. And as it turned out, by the time I got done, I had done about 30 of these types of curriculums, which were popular for Sunday schools. Yeah. And they were like five or six episodes each. And, and what, but I was always frustrated when I made them, because I felt they were just sort of talking heads. They're just people sitting and talking. And I tried to make is pretty a talking head show. But it's still, you know, like I'd find the right location, and then we would film it and, and and it was it was okay. It I mean, it served its purpose. It was like, it's as good as it could get. Sure. But it wasn't being there. And it wasn't, it wasn't a documentary. And I always wanted to make dramatic films. But but somehow I always was also interested in nonfiction. No document Yes. And so somehow, over the course of time, we ended up making another film earlier on which I was not that I helped to get it started, which is called Secrets of the Bible code. And that film came out by another company called Grizzly Adams productions, and they, they produced the ancient secrets of the Bible. And so the there was a book out that came out about this in the late 90s, about the Bible code. And so I had heard about that, and I was a part of that development of that, just where they were looking for sequences of information in the in the text. And there's some pretty interesting, you know, materials there. And then from there, I made another TV special called Jesus diviner, Da Vinci. Which when the Da Vinci Code came out, okay, remember that? Yeah, I was, I was really bothered by The Da Vinci Code.

In the sense, they were making some outlandish claims, right? And people were believing it, which is even

more crazy. Yeah, man. And I thought somebody asked to do something about this, somebody needs to make a film about this and kind of let people know, because in the inside cover that book, it kind of basically states that everything we're saying here is accurate. Well, that wasn't accurate, you know. And so I talked with a scholar, and I had an idea. And I ended up thinking, well, how am I going to handle this, and I want to make it more mainstream. And I thought came to me go to a coffee shop, and that coffee shop, sit down and talk with people and ask them if they've seen The Da Vinci Code, and then to explain the story to me. So I did just like we're sitting here with a microphone, a camera, and I would ask them these different questions. So tell me the story. How does it begin in Who's this person effort? So and then? And then eventually, I would get to the final question. And then I would say, so who is Jesus? Is he is Jesus divine, or Da Vinci? And they would go, Oh, Jesus is divine. And somebody would say, Oh, Jesus is definitely the Vinci you know, meaning this is the interpretation or, and. And I was quite, I'm glad I made that film, and was able to basically, you know, answer that question. But I made that film, without any money to begin with. I made it because it had to be made sure. And I told a distributor that I have an idea for a film, he says, Well, I need a title. And so the title that I had was, I thought about it, prayed about it. And finally, one morning, I woke up, Jesus, diviner, Da Vinci. And so I gave him that title. And he said, I like that title. He's, that's really good. And so we ended up calling me back about an hour later and said, I just sold 1000 units. Oh, my gosh. And then he called back at like, another hour later, he goes, by the time the end of the day came at 3000 copies sold for a title that I hadn't even made. Wow. So then I go, Well, I know I need to make it.

Yeah.

So that's how that happened.

That's interesting. So that kind of started you really into this type of film work?

Yeah, it was sort of the beginning. In the meantime, I'd actually started in this project. I didn't know how to make films like this. They really were a lot of experimentation. And just trying to figure out, how do I tell a story as complex as this? and it kept getting bigger? Yeah, I think that was the problem was that was that I had to be? I had to be in the material for a long time in order to understand how to tell it. And eventually, I would, I would say, to some people's, you, you have to have a story in order to tell a story. Absolutely. And I hadn't had a story at the beginning. You know, I'm saying I wasn't I wasn't mature enough. And I didn't know enough about it, I would have just been making something, you know, pretty trivial or whatever. So but I did make two films prior to the form that I finally made. In the in the we never released them, because I never felt that they were right. I looked back at them. And I'm so embarrassed by by them. They look, they look so poorly.

Yeah, I think we're always embarrassed by the first by the earlier stuff that we've done. Yeah. And, you know, I, I've been producing TV shows now for a while, and I look back at some of the earlier ones. And like, man, I can't believe I did things that way. So, but I want to talk more about your film in just a minute to the patterns of evidence series, especially some of the things I want to talk about in this interview. And I want to make sure that I get these in here. I'm calling this podcast along the way, because in my life, there's been primarily God teaches me things along the way. It's it's not necessarily things that I intended to learn. But it's things that God has taught me as I was going to where I thought God was taking me, the scripture that I the story that I like to talk about with this is that on the road to him as the disciples, there's two disciples were walking, they knew that they were they had to get to a maze. And this was after Jesus was crucified, was risen again. And they didn't know about that yet. And so they're walking along, and Jesus comes and comes along with them. And he's walking with them. And they don't realize that it's him this whole time. And he's revealing the scriptures to them. And they finally get to their destination. Jesus breaks the bread for, for their meal. And then he disappears. And they realize that it was Jesus this whole time. They say to each other. Didn't our hearts burn within us along the way as he was revealing the scriptures to us? And so I kind of wanted to ask some questions based around that. And so, like, Do you remember that? The first thing that God spoke to you that remember that God spoke to you about?

What age?

Just the earliest thing that you can remember that God spoke to you? And what did he say? And how did it change you?

Well, there was something that happened in my life when I was a kid that I knew that I had to film. And the first time I had a set that that it was God speaking to me it was well actually, when I was almost hit by a vehicle, and I was my mother asked me to go to the grocery store and I saw ran to the grocery store. And you know, when your kid you run everywhere, no, yeah, you don't walk you know, on. So I ran to the grocery store with, you know, probably $1 wadded up in my pocket or $2. To get something like butter, something my mother needed. We lived on the same block as a grocery store. But there's an alley in between. And there's this big apartment building with the stores on the bottom of it. So when I came back running, I was running full blast. And I was about approaching the alley, I was just going to run into the alley, I didn't think about anything like looking for cars or anything. And I heard this loud voice yell, stop. And I stopped and I turned around, and there's nobody anywhere. And so I started running it. And then I hear this voice a walk. So I walk. And when I get to the patch of the building, when I'm going to leak and step into the alley, it says lock. And I poked my head around the bus. And all sudden, about five feet from me coming at full speed is a huge tire. And it was a garbage truck coming in it and I pulled my head back and it just came right in front of me. I mean, it was probably his closest you and I are that's how close that garbage like three

feet maybe?

Yeah, yeah, three feet. And had I not stopped, walked in looked. I would have been crushed. And we wouldn't be sitting here. And I went home and I talked to my mother. And I told her and she has told me in her arms. And she thanked the Lord and in prayed. And I think that was the first time I ever, you know, actually, I would say audibly heard a voice sounds like it to me.

So I so obviously God has a purpose for your life. Yeah, I mean, he's he set you apart from a young age. Yeah. So how did how did you identify that purpose? I know it's kind of your kind of weaving that in through the story right now. But how did you feel like you identified

your purpose? Well, I think that purpose. We could call it a calling, right? And in the fusions chapter two, I think its first 10. It says For we are Christ's workmanship. And it communicates that what that Christ has prepared good works for us to do before the beginning of creation. And so identifying that I didn't really know what that verse until just a few years ago, my wife shared with me, I think that, that

the one

concern that happens with people is they get distracted from their purpose. And, and it's really important. And for me, I, I didn't know what it was, but I knew after hours in Google Voice or going to movies, that I was supposed to be involved with movies, which was the farthest thing from my background, or from my family or anyone, and, and the cinema. And I don't know if it's TV or what it was. But I had this drawing, it was like my heart, I think I think when you have a purpose, it's like your heart is, is drawn to it. And there was a love for it. There's a passion for it. And so, so that, I think is one of the first things that a person can learn on the way and what is that verse? It was like their hearts were burned within the and they were burning within

us along the way.

Yeah. And I think that's what happens with a with a with a calling, is that God's causes a burning in your heart to go? Yes, it's like, let's just say if you're out on a beach, if you shut your eyes, you would know where the sun was coming from. Right? Because you could feel it, you know, I saw it this side of you know where the word shaded, it's going to you can sit, you can feel that warmth, you can feel that burning. And I think that as you get closer to understanding the things that you may be interested in, let's say, for some people, it could be horses, and you go, you know, why is it that I love horses so much. And then over time, you start to realize that well, horses, and let's say people with physical handicaps really work well together. And and horses seem to have another understanding. And so I've seen people with this lovely passion for horses that all sudden have a horse camp, you know, and they go, Well, you know, why is he loves horses? And then you love children, and then you love God? And then also that all fits together? And enough for me. I would not like messing around with horses.

You fell off of one earlier. Yeah.

Right. And so yeah, exactly. And so what ends up happening is I think God puts that little longing in your heart for something. And the most, I'll just tell you this, the most concerning thing is that you'll draw on that longing.

And I think that what

do you mean by that just?

Well, that if there's a purpose for your life, there's going to be lots of opportunities to distract you from that. And, and for example, you know, what does it say? The verse the Bible says, Be still and know that I am Lord. But today, not many people are have silence in their life now. In fact, it's pretty much constant music or news or TV, you know, constantly. Yeah. And so you're not really able to think because you're, you're busy, amusing yourself. And, you know, the two words of muse, you know, Muse means to think means not to think. So I'm amusement is not to think,

whoa, I've never, ever thought about that before. I never realized that before.

And if you if you're not thinking that you're kind of just entertaining yourself, you never thinking about maybe the things you're supposed to be doing. Yeah. And so what can happen is, is that you can get caught up, and I'm not trying to say that it's not right to pay, you know, you've got to pay the bills, you got to feed your family, you got to do all that. But there are some things you're supposed to do. I believe that you have to think about that and pray about that and not get distracted by entertainment.

Yeah, that's really important. I know. It's so easy. I mean, our phones are attached to our hips all the time, and they're in there in our hands. It's like, one of the first things that grab in the morning, when you wake up is probably the last thing you do at night sometimes. And it's a challenge for me. I know that. And so putting those some of those things aside to focus on on the Lord is, is something that I tried to do. I wish I was better at it. But what you said about the whole news thing says to not to think we're amusing ourselves with all this technology, even though it's good things. We're pulling ourselves away from maybe that destiny that God has for us.

Yeah, and you might not be thinking you might be thinking about something that you're not supposed to be thinking about, like, you know, but you're supposed to be thinking about other things. You know,

so it with your destiny with your purpose, you're making these incredible films, what's the first practical step that you took, and that you would encourage somebody else to take?

i? Well, when I first started, when my wife and I got married, I was able to save some save up some money. And I bought, believe it or not a tape recorder. Now this tape recorder, let me pull back Actually, I bought a mixing board. Okay, so I bought a mixing board. And it was the only piece that I had. I didn't have anything else. But it took me 18 months to pay for that mixing board. And I used to head up, I had it in the room, and I had a cover over it. And I ended up I laid hands and we prayed over it we dedicated Lord. And then after I got to pay it off, then I was able to buy a tape recorder. And what I was doing was it was a like a multi year plan to be to bet develop a recording studio in my home. And I was at the time this is before I you know, I wasn't sure music film sure what it was going to be. So the easiest thing was to recruit to develop a recording studio. And so that took about four or five years. And so what I would say a practical step for people is to have a long range plan. And words, don't think in just terms of, you know, short time short, short term, but always I've always had a long range plan. And some of you know what that means. But but let's just say, if you want to be a writer, or you want to be a singer or you want to do something, you need to start working towards that plan. You know, and that means that when it's sunny, and everyone's out at the park playing, if you're if you're scheduled to be working on that plan, some you just have to be consistent and you pick, we've I've learned that if you pick away at it, piece by piece by piece. Also got something. And so I went from a mixing board, to a recorder to then building the room to then getting a microphone. Okay, now I'm starting to look like a little recording. So it's actually building a whole recording studio. And, and, you know, I mean, I had the I had the space, I had all this stuff. And within, you know, four or five years, I was in, you know, I was doing it. Wow.

That's, that's pretty cool. So that's very practical. I appreciate that praying, praying over that sound board, that mixing board, even though you had nothing to really plug into it, you were praying by faith that this is the first piece, the first step in them. And that vision that God has for you

know, my wife had to tolerate the fact that we were spending money on stuff that she's like, Well, I'm not quite sure, but you know, so Tim is spending money on this equipment. And, you know, what's the point? You know, but no, well, yeah, that's, that's so true, you know, slowly building towards it. But once again, why it's so important is because you're building on a larger idea.

That's really appreciate that. That's good. What, what would you say would be was one of your most difficult steps that you had to take?

I think that the risk, financial risk is always there. Because leaving, like when I first got a job, at an ad agency, I had to leave a job. There's a couple things happen when I first got out of school and got married, you know, I mean, you're at two years of Associate of Arts degree and a film, one year film school. I was didn't know anything. I mean, I was as green as they come. And but I was enthusiastic. You know, and so, but then I had to go to work. And I worked at up at a body shop, my uncle had a body shop auto body. And I learned how to paint incense and paint cars. And you know that from the time I was 18, until I was 30 years old, I painted cars, probably several thousand cars, you know, parts and you know, front ends and sides and doors, everything. And through that time, that was a very difficult time, because I had accidents when I was in the body shop with my eyes. And a couple times, well, three times I went to the emergency room, I think I was the only guy in the body shop that had these bizarre accidents. And I finally came to a place where I was really desperate. And I said to God, I said, I said if I never make a film for you, I will pray for those that do. So I there's a story about Abraham and his son Isaac, and Abraham has to give Isaac up. And I wanted to be a filmmaker so bad. And I ended up putting my desire for filmmaking just said, Okay, I'm, you know, whatever you want, I'll give it back to you. And the Lord said, someday, you know, I said, you'll be able to move forward. And I said, Please, before, I'm 30, I want to get out of this body shop. You know, I just felt like I want to get on with my life. But those doing those 30 years, they're doing those, you know, till I was 30. I was working. And I felt you know, I had a record little record label. And I was able to radio commercials, TV commercials, I was doing everything I wanted to be doing. But I was painting cars at the same time. So I didn't say, Well, what it could have should have, someday I'll do something else. I actually started a parallel career alongside my car painting career. And so by the time I moved to an ad agency at are already produced a number of things, and and just walked into that, and ended up selling more advertising and marketing than the guy had ever had sold before. Because God I think I was put his hand on my life. Wow.

So you've had some challenges along the way? How did you overcome some of those detours in your path?

I think number one is perseverance.

So if you feel like you're supposed to do something, you need to make a plan for it. So you have to make a plan and then just get up in the morning and and and say well, what do I need to do today to make that happen?

And number two,

I think it's important to have people to pray with, because you're going to need help you need extra people that maybe can be sympathetic to what you're trying to accomplish. If you're trying to develop something or, you know, we create things that don't exist. And lots of people do, you know, but the difference is, is when you're making a film, the types of films that I'm trying to make their was also a spiritual component. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I'm trying to make films that don't exist, that are breathed, inspired by God, you know, but there's something more than just me, you know, determining the course of that film.

Yeah, you want to be led by the Holy Spirit as you're doing these? This is kind of a fun question. If you could talk to yourself in the past, what version of yourself? Would you talk to? And what would you tell yourself? Like, what age? What stage of life? What would you like to go back and say, okay, little Tim. What? Yeah, what advice would you give yourself?

put more money in the IRA account?

I think that.

Yeah, I do think that I did a lot of things that I was supposed to do. And I probably would encourage myself, that it, you know, because there's a lot of anxiety that you can have about, you know, I think it would have taken more time for my vacation time. I've been a hard taskmaster on myself, and having taken many, many vacations, and my family would would agree to that. And, you know, they told me that they didn't feel like they missed out, but I always took them on a business vacation. You know, so Okay, so it was kind of like business would pay for a trip to a conference. And the conference was a Christian film conference or something. And then they'd go to the water park, and now go to the conference. And that's kind of how we did things. There's a whole season of my life like that. So I think I think for people is that

I would probably tell myself that

there were times when I worked too hard, that I should have relaxed. So I was always focused on accomplish, and not trying to forget what I like all of us. That there there are other times when I need to tell myself, relax, take a vacation, enjoy the weekend, take your family and just, you know, don't work so hard. How would you decide

when is that appropriate? And when is it not? Like when is it laziness? And what is it actually fruitful?

I think that you see, the challenge for a lot of people is that we have to do one thing, but we want to do something else. So what I mean by that is you have a job, you have to pay the bills. But let's say you're you want to be a writer. Well, when do you find time to write, if you're if you have a family, and you want to be a writer, and you feel like you're supposed to write or be a creative person, you're going to have to find some time in your life where you're going to basically write something. And you're going to say, Well, when I come home from work, and then I have my dinner with my family, and then you know, get everybody to bed, then it's like nine o'clock at night. Are you good to write at that time? You know, like, so you're right, from nine until 10 or 1030. And that's just your writing time? Or what if I can do that every week? What can you do it? You know, Tuesdays and Thursdays. And so you say okay, there's three hours? Well, at least you're moving forward. And I used to tell a friend, you know, if you're going to fall or trip, fall forward, yeah, don't fall backwards. But I think what I've noticed is that there's a lot of people that say they want to do something, but they've never actually make a step towards a nice day, when I started to travel, I started to see people that had TV shows. And I was being interviewed by them. And I looked at everything, all the equipment, they hadn't even realized my word these people don't know hardly know what they're doing. But they have a TV show. And I got no even know how to light, the camera gear and everything was like, it was like so amateur. But they were the ones that had a TV show, not me. They were the ones that were putting out. They were on a network, because they had the gumption even though they didn't know they didn't know what they didn't know. And I started to teach me something that, that if someone wants to write, it's not the proclamation of being a writer, or a filmmaker, or musician. It's the actual doing of it. Because a lot of people are saying that, but they never do. Sayers have to do I mean, you know it, and then you find people that don't say it, but they do it. It just they just have to do it. And I see this like, Filipino guy who's in Chicago or somewhere. And he's, he's doing, he's got this little show, and it's, you know, it goes out to the world. Yeah, he's got an audience. And I'm like, now, that taught me something,

you seem to be picking up a lot of things along the way, where God, were God's leading you, you know that that eventually led you to your patterns of evidence series. I want to talk about that a little bit. How did that really get started? Because you had some really serious questions. And I know I resonate with that, because I went through a period in my life where I really wanted to know is what the Bible says trustworthy? And is the Bible itself trustworthy? Not just what it's saying. But can we trust that the Bible is really the Word of God? So

yeah, how did that? Well, I had no idea that I had no doubts about the Bible growing up. I didn't know thoughts about the Bible, until I got to Egypt and went to the locations where the Bible, the events of the Bible, were said to have happened. And when I got there, it wasn't easy to get there. And when I finally got there, and I asked, Is there evidence for the Bible? Have you found evidence for the Israelites? And the Egyptologist said, so far, not? So far not. I mean, I knew he had been there for like 30 years, and he hadn't found any evidence. Well, that was a crisis of faith in the making. For me, the so when I came back, I was sitting in my editing suite on a Saturday morning, looking at this footage. And that's when, as I looked at it, this thought came into my mind. Everything that you've been taught is a lie. You know, what your mother believes all this, this isn't true. And this deep fear and kind of lawlessness came over me. But then another thought came into my mind, stop editing, get up, go to your office. So I got up, went to my office, go to your bookcase, and I went to my bookcase and somebody to give me a book by Egyptologist David roll, open that book out. I had been given to me about a year earlier. And I looked at it and I was like, wow, this is interesting. Here, here. What we had was all the evidence for the Israelites. But uh, but but completely a different interpretation than the first Egypt all just okay. As I said, I have to go to England and talk to this man. And that's what I did.

So you didn't just say, I'm going to read more of this book. You're like, I gotta talk to this guy in person. Right? I got questions, and I need to get answers directly from the source. Well,

I'm a filmmaker too. So I wanted to interview

Yeah. All right. So you, you went to England? And you met David roll? Yeah. What, what happened, then?

Well, then I filmed that interview. And what ended up happening was, if I look back on it, and give you the Reader's Digest shorter version of it, that's when I started to see a pattern of evidence, but we didn't call it that. I just knew that there was evidence for Joseph. And I was asking lots of questions to different people like David Rowan, and others. But what happened then was that over the course of this journey, that I was on, I, I thought I was making a film, and I was trying to make a film. But what happened was, is that I was actually being sounds like an odd word, but groomed in the world of archaeology in the Bible. And, and I was actually going through experience myself where I was, I was trying to understand a way to, to sort it all out. And so had I not spent the time, and all the trips, multiple trips back and forth. And just getting a better, clearer, deeper understanding. Had I not done that, and had I not listened to different viewpoints, I never could have made the film. So I made, but I had had been seasoned a long time in that information to basically step back and say, Well, how in the world are we going to tell this story? And what is holding it together? It's like, lots of things need a spine to them, you know, and then you hang the muscle and the other skeletal structure. Once once you're able to figure out that what we're really looking forward to patterns of evidence that freed us up to take a scientific approach that was more popular. And it also meant that I could talk with people from different viewpoints. And once I started talking to people from different viewpoints, I started to like the style of filmmaking better, too.

So the first one about the exodus is really about did the exodus really happen? Can you just give us the Reader's Digest version of that before we and I want to talk about the Moses controversy? Yeah,

for a moment. So that's the first film. So basically, it looks for six patterns of evidence. It looks for the arrival of the Israelites in Egypt, the arrival of Joseph, can we find a character like that, then we look for is there a growth in this people because the Bible says that this small family comes in and they grow into this nation in in Egypt? And then it says that the that they're so large, that the Egyptians get threatened by them, and they be turned them into slaves? Oh, can we find a pattern of slavery of the other Semitic people that go from, let's say, Come in small girl, and then are impoverished. And those are the first three steps, arrival, multiplication and slavery, then we basically said, well, the Bible says that there was plagues in the 10 plagues of Egypt. And so there has to be some type of devastation in Egypt, followed by an exodus of these Semitic people. And the final step was the conquest of the Promised Land. So that first film looked at those six steps. And that was the beginning of the patterns of evidence, film series,

and you found some incredible things. And anybody that's listening, I want to make sure that you check out patterns of evidence calm, and you can get information there, I'll put the information in the show in the show notes as well, right.

And once again, I'm the filmmaker. All that what I did is I basically found the people who found what they were looking for, but I found the I was able to create with Steve laws, my writing partner, and he's amazing help. And, you know, have a team of editors and and different people and and investors. So they supported me through this whole process. It took 12 years to make that first film. Wow. And when when it came out, it went to theaters, and then it went into worldwide distribution on Netflix.

Yeah. How was it received? What was some of the feedback from that?

Well, on Amazon, it's a five star rated film with over, you know, close to 600. You know, reviews. Wow. So it was really highly received, you know, people are, it's a viewpoint that it's saying that it's expressing a way of seeing the events of the Bible, and when they happened. And and, and what we're saying is that you have to look earlier in time to find those evidences. And that's what the first film shows is that there's a challenge. It's challenging the chronology of Egypt.

People think they know what they know. But it's not always correct, right? They just, they're just entrenched in their unbelief.

Yep. So the question is, is what's your professor taught you? And his professor taught him? What were those assumptions? And is it possible that there are they really correct? And so that's what the film is trying to look at us to free us from maybe some faulty assumptions.

You made mention before we started this, that you've actually had some contact with people that their lives have has changed because of seeing this film. Right. Tell me just a little bit about about some of those.

Yeah, well, that's true. And we have lots of different testimonies. I'll give you one in particular, there's a woman who came up to me, I was at a conference and she came with her booth. And she turned around and she says, she's from Africa. And she's kind of telling my story. And I said, Yes. And so she said, Well, she says, I'm from Africa, and I was from a different religion, and I converted to Christianity. And so I wanted to become, I wanted to go to a good college. So she thought she picked a good Christian College, and went there. And she took Bible, and the professor said that the stories of the excess didn't happen, that it was a myth. And she thought,

adding Christian Bible College, right. I say that the exodus didn't happen, right? Let's say yes. And a Christian school. Yes. Just establishing that that's, that has happened. Okay.

Right. And and, and so she she was quite alarmed by this. It really bothered her. She thought, why did I become a Christian if this stories aren't true? And so she went back and there was a student there from a group called Rocio Christie. And they said, Well, have you heard about patterns of evidence? And she said that she hadn't. And they said, Well, you need to see patterns of evidence. And so she got on Netflix, and she said, she stayed up the whole night, watch, the film, took all sorts of notes. And the next day, she went back to school back to class, and told the professor, she said, You are wrong, you are wrong, there is evidence for the Exodus, you need to see patterns of evidence. And he goes, What's patterns, evidence, and she says, and so she told him, and he ended up watching it. And she said, just so you know, she says that, he changed his class. Now a professor basically changed this test, and he changed his class. And he was he was, you know, moved by in this, this girl who, this woman who potentially could have, you know, walked away from her faith, big 10, I've gotten many, I just got an email from for somebody from France, that said the same thing. So we have about 80 or so 80 pages of of recent, you know, of people writing us with all sorts of different stories. I have an email, I just got a text today from a young man who saw the second film. And then he had to see the first film, he was an agnostic, 25 years old, and he basically just came back to believe, you know, he's just, he's just this really, really moved by what he saw the information that he saw,

that's awesome. Why do you think that there is such an attack on the evidence that really is there?

Well, I think that's, you know, I think there's lots of reasons. So are that people just don't believe the stories happen, because they believe that history of the Bible happen a certain way. But the way that they're suggesting that happen, then means that the whole Bible is suspect. Because if there wasn't a Moses, if there wasn't the event of the Exodus, then all of the other Bible writers who Bob the God says it were inspired to write the scriptures. Word inspired, because they're all wrong. So the reason why it's so significant that we figure this out, is that all of those Bible writers, and even Jesus is talking about Moses, and Jesus is referencing Moses multiple times. In the Transfiguration, you know, there's three that are there, and Moses is one of them with Jesus. So all of this is then not, you know, doesn't add up in because it's all built in upon a fabrication. So that's the reason why I let me tell you something, I didn't know that I'd be making a film about it about any of that. And so this new film patterns of evidence, the Moses controversy, is really addressing that first question, how do we know that this, these texts were written by Moses? And so the only thing that we could really look at is asking the question it was there a writing system? Because that's another complaint. They say, there wasn't a writing system that Moses could have used right at the time of the Exodus. And so we said, well, what would the writing system have to be mean would have been, you know, it has to be it has to be available at the time of the Exodus, in the region of Egypt. And it has to be in a form like Hebrew, because all text are written in Hebrew. And it has to be later on we discovered has to be alphabetic. And so like that as much as the hieroglyphic

right, as opposed to some type of a, it's like, there were like hieroglyphs and cuneiform, which was wedge shaped writing. So you have to look at those two writing systems. And the film basically shows you that, that hieroglyphics and those other cuneiform were so complex, that it would take a long time for someone to learn them. But the Bible is communicating that the Israelites could read and write. Because Moses gave a command said, teach these commands to your children, write them on the doorpost of your tents, and of your gates. So there's a direct connection multiple times to the writing. And I think even when the spies go out there to write down descriptions of what they see. The second time I think it wasn't. So there's, there's many, many references to this idea of these Israelites being literate.

That's something that you know, you go through Sunday school growing up, you don't even think about that, because we're so used to the 26 letters of the English, the English alphabet. And, you know, this is just what everybody used. And, but that's not always the case. And you're pointing back to something that is possibly very, very, very likely the very first alpha but

yeah, it's definitely very first alpha. But the big question is, is is it Hebrew, and you can okay with fever, then what we see is that the people group that matches the very first alphabet matches the story in the Bible of the Israelites. Wow. Wow,

I got two more questions for you. I know, we've gone longer than I expected. But there's just so much to talk about. What is something as a bit of evidence that a pattern of evidence that you found that just floored you know, whether you've made a film about it or not, what is something that just then that just kind of showed you? Wow, God really has an intelligent design for all this?

I think that once I came this year, once I came to the realization that, that there was a writing system that existed, that this writing system, the deeper intent of the writing system, is the fact that well, what if God allowed us to have this ability to write the Bible and gave a writing system so that it's not just writing it, but it's that we could read it? You know, that there was a reason that God wanted his word to be retained. And I can tell you that if we don't write things down, I can't retain them. I mean, I can't remember a lot of things that just happened a week ago, you know, you're taking notes right here, you know, so when you look at all these different reasons, you take notes, because you're trying to retain the information. Well, if God is communicating to Moses, about the history of the creation, and communicating of so many different things, and it's being passed down, and we get the laws and the commands and all this information, it's a lot of information, it has to be retained in a way that people can take it in. And I think the brilliant, the aha moment for me is that is that I can read the words of Moses directly. And that I think that the alphabet, the prime purpose of the alphabet, is to understand the words of God. And enrollments, it says that, you know, what value is it that, that you know, you're a Jew, in chapter three, it says, Well, these are the person people who are given the very words of God. So if you had a race of people that were given the very words of God, all the authors in the Old Testament and the New Testament, I believe they're all were Jewish. So he picked this group of people, this family, to communicate who he was to the world who got us the world, what the plan is, what's the big picture? Wow. And if you think about it, then this alphabet, which if people see the film, they're going to see that this alphabet, then is the basis of all alphabets throughout the world. And that from from that time, that little starting point, it then spreads the alphabet then spreads around the world. And, and then all the writing systems adapt to it, except for Chinese, and maybe a couple others. But but but it was so efficient, because they only had to have like less than like in that 20. I think the first off, but then I don't know how many figures I had 2022. They didn't have all vowels short time. But so what happens is it has all these has these letters that you can arrange any kind of words that you want, because it's a phonetic alphabet. And that basis of that alphabet, then, is, I think, the railroad tracks for the Bible. Because ultimately, that alphabet was used to, to give information. So it's like God is giving you a gift. And that gift is I'm going to get me to allow you to have this, but the have the ability to write and record history, write stories, write love songs. But the primary purpose of it is that you'll understand God's story. That's, that's what I see. Now, scholars would just pull their hair out if they heard me say that. But I'm going to tell you that the one book that utilize the Bible, more than any other and the impressions that we get from the Bible, is that this is God's word. And it's so important that we get so close to God, that it says In the beginning was the word in chapter in john chapter one. and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, and then said, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And in order to have a word, you have to have an alphabet. You know, I'm saying, I mean, you can have something else. But what we're trying to say is an alphabet is key. Because, because why does it do? It makes it easy for the writer. But it also makes it easy for the reader to comprehend what was written.

So God gave man, not just his word, but the alphabet, the ability to understand it, because he he's a communicated God. Yeah, he wants to be involved in our lives, every single day, every single way.

And some people would say, Well, you can't prove that Tim? And I say, Yes, I know, I can't prove it. I'm just saying that that's what I think is going on. My theory is that, that I believe that the alphabet is more than a coincidence that the alphabet is connected to the transference of the knowledge of God, and that it was the basis of allowing it to happen. And history shows that it actually the one book that utilize the alphabet, more any other by, I don't know how many times more. But it's like Vassar like 1000 times more than any other book in the world. Is the Bible, the Bible utilize in all these languages?

That's fascinating. Tim, can you please just tell us how to find out more information

if someone is interested in in this, seeing this film, they can go to patterns of evidence calm? And we'll have it available for them? You know, in different forms, like digital or DVD?

One last question. I've gained a lot of knowledge. You blessed me a lot from our conversation here. What book would you recommend that after our conversation in in this would impact my life?

Probably the Bible,

the Bible? outside of the Bible? I'm reading the Bible every day.

Okay? Well, you know, we do have some books on our website, we have, if you're if someone's interested in the first film patterns of evidence, the Exodus, we have the patterns of evidence of filmmakers journey, which is a that Steve law. And I wrote that sort of giving a view of the behind the scenes of making that film. So a script for a film this usually like 50 pages or or so. And I think this book is in the 400 pages. So it tells you a lot of the things that happened behind the making of the film. And deeper, we have bonus chapters where we go into deeper into parts of the investigation. So these are things that you don't even cover in the film, right? quite a bit. And then we have, we have a children's series called young explores, which is also taking the material from the film, and that children's series. It's on the cornerstone, Cornerstone network. And they're showing it that's also been made into a curriculum. And there's a high school curriculum as well. For for homeschool kids. And then we have a book called The evidence of faith. And the evidence of faith is a book that is a small group study, and it has helps people to go through it. There's videos in front of every episode, every chapter, it just talks about what is this chapter about? And it's basically discussing why is it's important that we have a historical faith. Because there are many people today that say that we don't have to have a historical faith. These stories don't have to be true. They're just good moral teachings. And what we're going to basically do in that book is take you through the reasons why it we have a historical faith and why that's very important not to not to lose, lose out understanding to man.

Well, Tim, thank you so much for allowing us to come along the way and your journey. And I've been blessed by your impact in my life and the few times that we've had the opportunity to meet. And I've just appreciate this time that we've had today. Well,

keep up the good work. Thanks for for doing it. Thanks for having me on the show.

It was great to be able to talk with Timothy Mahoney and learn from the lessons he's learned along the way. In his story, I noticed some similarities to my own. For example, He started off pursuing radio and ended up in TV and film as have I. Even though our crisis of faith wasn't over the exact same issue. It drove us both to search for the truth and not to stop until we found the answers to the questions that were stirring within us. in some circles, people say the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it. And that's all the evidence they feel they need to have. But the Christian faith isn't built on some fabrication that we have to overlook in order to believe it is grounded in evidence and truth. So I encourage you to keep looking for truth and never stop. And when you're looking for truth, ask, Why do some people look at a piece of evidence and believe? Well, others can look at that same piece of evidence and deny Tim about having correct assumptions. And I feel that it is often missing in our filter as we look at the world around us. We need to be aware of bias and faulty assumptions when we're gathering information to make a decision. When I'm confronted with the evidence, it can make me uncomfortable. But when the truth makes me uncomfortable, do I let the truth change me? Or do I stay in my comfort? I want to be known as someone who is looking for the truth that changes me. And john 14 verse six, Jesus says, I am the way, the truth and the life. God also promises that he will be found when we seek Him. Jeremiah 29 verses 12. And 13 says that you will call upon me and go and pray to me and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find me when you search for me with all your heart. God's desire has always been for communication and relationship with us. I hope that you keep searching for truth with me and let God's truth change us to be more like Him every day. If you want to know more about Timothy Mahoney, check out his website at patterns of evidence calm, you can find plenty of information about his patterns of evidence films, the Exodus and the Moses controversy. He has a new film coming out in the fall about the Red Sea crossing. Also, he has a curriculum for students called young explorers, and you can sign up for his thinker updates so you can be in the know with evidence that is being found today. Also, you can watch Tim's episode of real life. And there'll be a link in the show notes. You can go to real life dot CTV n dot o RG to watch more episodes of my show real life. Tim mentioned a few books of filmmakers journey and evidence of faith. Both of those can be found on his website and I'll be providing links in the show notes as well. Thank you for joining me along the way. If you've enjoyed joining me along my way, please rate and subscribe to this podcast and follow us on Facebook and Instagram. My website is along the way dot media. I hope you've enjoyed this part of my journey. And may you realize when Jesus is walking with you along your way