The Copper Scroll Project - Shelley Neese’s Journey AlongTheWay 41

Most archaeologists are most Dead Sea Scrolls scholars because it is written the way it's written. And there's nothing fanciful about it. There's nothing that feels like a myth about it. They think that it is authentic. They think that it's connected to the Jewish temple. But they didn't know what to do with it because it felt so incredibly specific to that time period that it was almost as if whoever had these items was writing a little notation to themselves after they got back from exile, how to go back and find these treasures. And it would be impossible for us to read today. So there have been a few people before who have gone after the copper, gold treasure, but none of them were able to seal the deal.

Welcome to along the way. I'm John Matarazzo. Your host and fellow traveler, thank you for joining me along my way is that trying to become more like Jesus every day, my journey and this along the way conversation connects me with Shelley nice, the author of one of my favorite books that I read in 2019 the copper scroll Project. It is an awesome true story of a real life treasure hunt of biblical proportions. If you've ever wondered if there really still is ancient treasure buried out there, then you'll want to hear more of what Shelley has to say. I'll get to that in just a moment. I'm so excited to find out when people are listening to this show. I pray that it blesses you as it has my life. If you've been listening to along the way, for any length of time, you might have picked up that I was a missionary for eight years with a group called youth with a mission. I haven't been a full time missionary since 2011. But I still have a huge heart for Jesus, his great commission to go into all the world and preach the gospel. I've been working and producing TV professionally for almost eight years now. And I have not been able to go into all the world like I used to, but that desire is still there strongly. Every time I look at my podcast host website, I can see that along the way is doing something that I can't. It is going all over the world in ways that I am can't even imagine, as if this episode along the way has been listened to in over 41 countries that blesses my heart so much because this podcast is get into places that I might never be able to go to physically. I'm here in Pittsburgh and a lot of you listen locally, but I also have a lot of people listening in the Houston Texas area, and Virginia, Michigan, Oregon, just to name a few, as well as many, many cities around the world. I want to say thank you for listening to along the way. I would love to hear from you. Please email me at john along the way@gmail.com. And let me know where you're listening from. All of my contact links are in the show notes. I look forward to hearing from you. And now here's my along the way conversation with Shelly nice. Shelly nice, it's great to have you along the way. I'm looking forward to hearing more of your story. You and I originally got connected through another guests that we've had on the real life program. Doug Hirsch. He posted about your book on Facebook. And I said, Hey, Doug, would you think that Shelley would be a good guest on real life? And without any reservations? He said, Absolutely. You have to get Shelley on the real life TV program. And you have to hear her story and what she's doing with the copper scroll project, and we'll talk about that a little bit later. But I would really want to hear about your life, Shelly, because it's great to be with you along the way.

Thanks for having me, john. Yeah, no, that's exciting. I mean, nobody ever asked about me, you know, anymore. It's been about it's been about the covers girl project for a while. Yeah.

Which is a very exciting thing. So there's a reason that people were excited to talk to you about that. There's more to you than a book that you've written. So

it was a lot of lead up to that I guess.

Yeah. Just give us a teaser about the copper scroll and then let's go back and talk about how God has led you along your your journey so far.

Yeah, so the teaser, I guess the or the elevator pitch. One time I was actually in an elevator and had to pitch it to CBS in the elevators. is a literal, literal elevator pitch, right? It's a treasure hunt with biblical proportions. So it's about one dead sea scrolls called the copper scroll, which is a verbal treasure map from 2000 years ago, and the book just follows the journey of the person who is the only one actively looking for those treasures. Jim Barfield,

and it is a phenomenal read. I read it and basically could not put it down last year and said we need we do need to get Shelley on the real life program. You are just a wealth of knowledge about biblical history and prophecy, but took you a while to actually get to the place where you are now where you know all this stuff. Shelly, tell us about your journey with the Lord.

Sure. So I grew up in a small town called las Buffalo, Louisiana. My dad was a pastor at a non denominational congregation. I went to Louisiana State University for college and that's where I met my husband, Brian, and well Of course, when we first met, we weren't husband or wife yet, but so I just

wasn't an arranged marriage now.

Exactly. I think one of the most pivotal points in my life was one day. So my boyfriend who's now my husband, you know, we wanted to get married, but he wanted to go to medical school and I wanted to study abroad. We're one year apart in college. So it seems like that was going to kind of drive us away. So we were checking just our college post office boxes. And I don't think that I had ever before read a piece of junk mail or have ever since read a piece of junk mail. But I did that day, and he did that day and it was a brochure or a program in Israel, an overseas program that I would eventually applied to and medical school in collaboration with Columbia University and their seven Israel, which is in the southern part of Israel. And so we decided to apply for those programs. And we did and we knew almost nothing about Israel, certainly not modern Israel. We were believers. My husband was a new Christian actually in college, but we really knew nothing about what we were getting ourselves in. But it sounded like an exciting adventure. And so we got married and two weeks later, Israel. So I would say that that that junk mail on that day was it was a turning point. So

God can speak through junk mail is what you're trying to say.

Exactly. Exactly. Not to say to encourage you always to read it when bush

Yes, so you got married, and then two weeks later moved to Israel?

Yes. Which at the time, you know, getting on the airplane and my mom, you know, up until this point, I've hardly lived out so I haven't lived outside of Louisiana. And here we are moving to Israel for three and a half years. My mom was crying in the airport and I still feel so bad to this day because I just remember thinking because I felt really big and adult and thinking

this is fine. This isn't Normal decision. So now I feel bad about that because now I'm a mom. So I realized how hard that must have been. But yeah, so we moved there for three years and that was our first few years of marriage.

You were there for three and a half years so Was that your it? Was that like your honeymoon? Two weeks later? Yeah, yeah, I

think we you know, we went to Mississippi or something for for our actual honeymoon, but then pretty quickly came back sold all of our stuff which we were in college, so it wasn't that much stuff. And and moved and put all of the wedding gifts in my parents attic. We had two suitcases. Oddly, we only had two suitcases that we could bring over with this for that long of time. So almost like no house decorations or anything. But I just remember that we put a waffle house menu in the suitcase. For three and a half years. One of our only decorations was a waffle house menu.

I'm sure that Waffle House is still looking for that menu too. So what did God do to you? Well you do through you to you in you when you were in Israel

when we first arrived. Well, first I remember even just being in the Frankfurt Airport because a lot of layovers happen in Frankfurt before you go to Israel, in Germany and seeing all Orthodox Jews get onto the plane. Now, that's not the case for every fight going as well, certainly. But suddenly, I realized, here I am from Louisiana, like have probably known one Jewish person my whole life. And it wasn't until that moment that I realized, Oh, we even though Jesus is from Israel, I'm actually going to a totally Jewish country, you know, and all that that meant in terms of it wasn't until I got on that airplane that I realized I was reversing the situation and now I was going to be the religious minority, which up till that point, I mean, granted, I was a Protestant from Louisiana. So I guess I have been a minority in that way but but nothing like what I was walking into even our programs Most people who decide to go study in Israel in their 20s are Jewish, not, not Christian Christians go there on programs with their church for two weeks or traveled there for a little while, but not to go live and study because usually not into a family or some kind of deeper connection. So everything changed. Suddenly, I'm in this country that I knew nothing about. All of my friends and classmates are Jewish. Now my neighbors are Jewish. Even I go to class on Sundays, you know, because the weekend there starts on Friday afternoon, and it's Saturday, but Sunday is a regular work day. We had a congregation there of Messianic Jewish church, but even in that case, they met on Saturdays because they're messianic. So Saturday sabot. So it was just suddenly everything changed everything that I knew about my own traditions and faith walk practices, but on the same token, it would just felt so alive the fact that we would road trip to Jerusalem, or to the Galilee or all of these places that we're now part of our lives, not even part of a tourist trip. That was amazing. And it It helped me connect with a part of my faith and a part of our faith history that I had never even thought about before that I had never even considered. And that's it. Jesus was Jewish.

Yeah, that's something you kind of forget about sometimes as you're reading the Bible that Jesus was Jewish, and the ad that's who he was primarily speaking to, even though thank God, some Gentiles did get in that story as well. I was just reading this morning about the, the Gentile woman that was asking Jesus for healing for her daughter. And Jesus basically told her No, and she said, even the even the dogs get this, get the scraps from the from the Masters table. And he was amazed by her faith. And it's like, oh, wait, yeah, that's a totally different culture that's going on right there. And so just to have real life applications where you have a deeper understanding of something that just kind of just causes the light to turn on for you,

right. Yeah, and I know You know, only reading the Bible there was I suddenly And granted, you know, I was young. So a lot of your faith is maturing in your 20s. But just realizing, Oh, Jesus never actually even left Israel. He says, I came for the lost sheep of Israel, he never left this land. Before he ascends to heaven, he'll commission the disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel. But that was their job. That wasn't what he did while he was alive. He came from Washington federal, and then the message was to be sent from there other than

those few short years where he and his family fled to Egypt, and then they came back but right wasn't doing any ministry down there.

And even that is just part of the Jewish story, you know, in terms of the pre Exodus, that So in a way, he was just repeating that Jewish story of of exile and then return. So also, I should say that this was once we got there, that's when the Intifada broke out, which was the next three years would be suicide bombings and just one of the most violent times in Israel's history and In terms of spontaneous scary, right terrorism,

what years was that? 2002 2004?

Okay, so it's before there was no wall back then. And it was after the Oslo core. It was just a crazy time. So suddenly, it was just a frenzy of suicide bombings, and we lived in kind of an unimportant town, or Sheva is not on most people's radar for Israel. You know, it's just a southern desert town. But it is university town, but most of the attacks were targeting Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. But there were a few times that the bus that we wrote every day to the campus was bombed, not while we were on it, but um, so it wasn't that vajrasattva was totally off the radar. But Israel's decides in New Jersey, so a bonding that happens in Jerusalem or TV, I mean, it's felt throughout the country, just in terms of everybody knows somebody, and it all feels deeply personal.

So we were actually in Israel at the same time. I was there, the Number 2003 to January of 2004. I was there for six weeks.

Now tell me remind me what you were you there with? Why wait, I was

there with a why when does How was your training?

I was in Jerusalem or were

Tel Aviv, Jerusalem Haifa a lot. We see

you were in the cities.

Yeah. And there was some areas that we had to definitely stay away from the areas that we felt that God say, go to this area, even though it's dangerous, because we used to preach there. And we saw some amazing, amazing things, which I'll, I'll share at some other point. But this is your story.

Right now. That's amazing. So we actually overlap so you know exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah,

yeah. You could feel it in the air there that there's always this tension, this uneasiness of you just don't know what's gonna happen. Everybody's kind of a little bit skeptical of other people. Exactly.

Yeah. Somebody gets on a bus in July with a heavy coat on and then everybody gets off.

No. And that's that's all terrorism. It's also just a psychological war as well.

You wouldn't Israel for three years with your husband? Wouldn't God do with you after that?

Well, so what when we got there, I'll say that the shift happened that I had always been a math major in college because that's what I felt like I was good at. And I'm competitive. So I just kind of enjoyed the the competitive nature of math and trying to set the curve for the exams. And I think I understood in terms of God's plan and purpose for me at that time was just, you do whatever you're good at. And only once I got to Israel, did I realize, you know, there was nothing about math that that fit other aspects of how I wanted to serve God or how or just knowledge and, and information that I wanted to pursue, for myself and my walk with God. And so dropping math was big Deal. But with the Intifada going on and living in Israel, suddenly none of that I didn't care about that I didn't care about math or science, I wanted to know about what was happening around me, I wanted to understand why this was happening. And so, and there was big gaps just in my education to that point. So I didn't know anything about Jewish history or anything about the story of the Middle East. And so I just started taking every class that I could on those subjects so that I could understand what was happening. And also just understand where I fit in it all and how I thought I was spontaneously just reading junk mail, and now I'm living in Israel during the war. And I feel very cold to the people around me and to the to the movement that was happening around me and so a lot of that was dealing with Christian history and dealing with what Christians have done to Jews for 2000 years that I just had never Really reconciled before. And suddenly all of my friends are Jewish. And we're talking about the Holocaust a lot. I'm learning about the Spanish Inquisition, and just the crusades, and all of these points in history that Jews were our first target, and trying to just go through a process of repentance and restoration for what all of that meant. And the process of all that I ended up graduating in Middle Eastern Studies kind of accidentally, and going to graduate school and Middle Eastern Studies, I guess the first degree was technically political science for the graduate degree, it was Middle Eastern Studies. And like you said, I mean, in Israel at the time, I was really tense, gravity was thicker at that moment. And so even studying the Israeli Palestinian conflict and all those things in the classroom with Israelis, because at that point in graduate school, I was studying just with Israelis. It just felt like the most pressing thing in the world. You know, it felt I just had to come home. And I am I was not good at humanities. I was terrified of writing. Really, I just always Yeah, I just always focused on math. So I had a poor foundation for history and social sciences and

and still to this day

I'm terrified of.

But you do it a lot exact you're good at it.

Well, I just feel like if God wants us, I mean, just like with Moses or David or Esther. I think God sometimes propels us towards the things that we think we're bad at, or in a way from our natural talents because I was I probably would have struggled with humility if it was about math, but as a writer, I just can't get enough advice. I can't get enough direction I am. It is not a struggle to stay in a constant state of humility when it comes to writing. I feel like everybody's my teacher. Yeah, yeah. So that was that was felt like I was biting off this thing bigger than I can too by switching over and suddenly just writing all the time and also, just all my Jewish Israeli classmates knew things instinctively from their childhoods that I didn't know, you know. So I would come up with these paper topics that were just ABC this to Jewish history, but I didn't know that I start from the beginning. So yeah, it's hard to even just kind of think it all through now. But I know that was a big turn and a big shift. I also was not thinking about what I would do for work after all.

Okay, yeah,

I mean, I'm Middle Eastern Studies majors seems like, well, that might have two jobs when I moved back to the States. But when you're compelled and propelled to do something and learn something, I think you have blinders on towards what the end result is.

Yeah. And also God leads those steps afterwards, even though it doesn't seem like there's any footing there. God's gonna make away if he leads you in your first step. He's gonna lead you in your second step two,

yeah, what feels uncomfortable is usually the right answer.

Yeah, In my life, that's just something that I've, you know, I'm constantly having to remind myself that God hasn't led me this far to leave me hanging Yes. Or, you know, given me this experience or that encouragement just to tease me that's not in his character. That's not who he is. So he's, he knows what my next step is, before I take this step. Exactly. It's always good to be reminded of that. And even if we need to remind ourselves times, so Exactly. You just been talking about finding your purpose, a little bit there, because you thought your purpose was one thing. And then now it is something a little bit different. Tell me more about your purpose as a writer as a Middle East Studies as an advocate for Israel. Tell me about your purpose now and how God's led you that way?

Sure. Well, I mean, as you know, like, passion and purpose can can help overcome our weaknesses. Whereas I wasn't passionate about math and just came naturally so suddenly I found what I was passionate about. And even though is really hard and felt unnatural, I knew that it felt like an act of worship in a way. So, I mean, still to this day when I write, because I'm so terrified of it, because I feel so humble towards it. And that it's a gift and that it has to be God and why I'm doing this. I mean, a lot of times I can't even sit down when I write, especially, I mean, mostly I'm writing about the Bible, or Israel or the Jewish people. So it's feels like an act of worship. And so it almost feels disrespectful to sit sometimes I get excited, and I feel the Holy Spirit writing through me because because I'm not a confident writer. So I know that that has to be it. And that's really helpful. You know, it's a really helpful thing in terms of depending on God because I actually do need God. He puts these burdens on my heart about what I should share with the church. About How we can reconcile with the Jewish people coming away from Israel. I just felt like the Jewish people are our big brother. And we were the little brother. And all little brothers want the approval and a relationship with the big brother. And so I just felt like to restore that relationship. We had some work to do. And I loved Israel, and I fell in love with Israel. And it was during a difficult time. So I also felt passionate about standing up with the Jewish people and fighting anti semitism and protecting the modern state of Israel and all that it was going through. When I came back to the States, I didn't know much about the Christian Zionist world in the States, because at that time, I had just lived in Israel. And I started working for an organization. So it was with Harvard Law School, and it was called conflict management group. And so we taught Israelis and Palestinian leaders conflict negotiation skills, because that ended up being my dissertation. Graduate School was in that world. Actually. I wrote about the Church of the Nativity scene that happened there the year before we got there. Yeah, and just how that was resolved and, and so that actually, that dissertation is what pushed me towards this job. But the whole time I was there, I felt like it was Harvard being Harvard. And they were just teaching these dry negotiation skills, the same ones they would teach to business students, to Israelis and Palestinians, that it's actually religion that fuels a lot of these debate, right. And so you can't approach Jerusalem as a rational actor the same way you would approach a merger for two corporations, but that's what they were trying to do. It's kind of unbelievable, really. So at some point during that job, even though it was a great job, and it was really, you know, always whatever your first job is, you just feel thankful to have it because it looks so good graduating with Middle Eastern Studies degree but I didn't feel comfortable. I didn't feel like I was advocating for Israel's interest. I didn't feel like the word was genuine. This is all really mean, because I'm really thankful for those people that hired me. But I did leave that job and went and worked for the Israeli consulate. I was the first Christian to get a security clearance working for his family consulate in Boston. And and that was really jumping ship because it did mean that if I had ever entertained a hope of being on that side of like the law side and the conflict resolution side of Israel, then working for the Israeli conflict pretty much within that in terms of that I have declared a bias, right, but I did, and the bias only got stronger from there. So once we left Boston, because my husband was a student there too. We moved to Charlottesville, Virginia, and then I cold called a Christian Zionist Organization called Jerusalem connection. I cold called their president named Jim Hutchins and just said, you know, this is my background. This is my experience. I love Israel. I love Israel more every day. And I like what you're doing the Need any help? And I was pregnant at the time with our first kid. And so, you know, usually that's not free for a job interview. But Jim Hutchison said, Yeah, come on in. And so so yeah, so I started off as editing a magazine that they did. And I had said before I had come back home I, because you know, I was just finished with my education. I thought, it'd be amazing if I get to write and continue learning about Israel. But do that for somebody, you know, if I get to stay in all of this, but for work, I just thought that idea of that was delightful, which is kind of what you do.

And so so that's what I first started doing. So I was the managing editor of the magazine, and later on, became the vice president organization. And then just last year, the person who hired me, General john hopkins, he retired at 8283. He's our president emeritus analysis still really involved on the president now. So I've been with them for 14 years, and just fighting for For what's important, important to Israel, which, as of the last year, we've gotten a lot of our if we had a Christmas list, a lot of that has been.

Yeah. I mean, the embassy moving from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem was huge.

I mean, only a 35 year longing in terms of when Christian Zionists helped write the legislation for that was 35 years before it actually happened, which is amazing. So, yeah, I mean, we were all in a hotel in DC together all the Christian Zionist leaders and organizations who had fought for this, including the people who had written the original legislation, and everybody was crying. The actual embassy opening that happened, we were all just crying. We went there later. I went there with my family this summer for a whole month and so we visited the embassy and my husband's military, so he knows that every embassy has a marine on base, and marine Sell coins, like special designed marine coins for the embassy as just kind of a way to support their Christmas balls or whatever. So we knocked on the door and normally, we'd like to buy a coin. So he gave us one but it was the Tel Aviv. It was a talent. I mean, we want one for tourism. He said, Come back tomorrow. So we came back the next day and it was fresh off the mint. It was like the coin was hot, you know? And it was the first Jerusalem and busy mean coins. That is really important right now I would hold it up.

But nobody this listen to this pod. Alright, see it? Maybe you can send me a picture of it and I'll put it on the post or something like that. Great idea. That's great. So there's some really exciting things happening in Israel and with the Jewish people. We're seeing prophecy really unfolding before our eyes. years ago, you came across Jim Barfield and what he has uncovered. Let's talk about that a little bit now, because the copper scroll stuff is how we originally got connected.

Well, so I didn't realize. I mean, I said I was the editor for that magazine. I didn't realize in the course of that first job, that I don't really like writing about politics. Just the 24 hour news cycle didn't suit me. You know, I think more with the historical lens and framework and brush. So I was writing about things going on in Israel. I'm interested about modern politics in Israel. But I was always trying to write about politics in Israel, by connecting it to something in Israel's past. And that was what spoke to me in terms of why I even pursued the studies that I did. I wanted to connect ancient Israel to modern Israel just always just tether them and show Christians how one affected the other but that takes time. You know, that's not a 24 hour news cycle servicing that's like I need to think and read and research and study, which is not great for just pumping out an article a day. So I met a man named Jim Barfield at a prophecy conference that I was just kind of visiting to look for stories. There was some Israeli members of Knesset there. And so I was just going to write some political stories. But I met him and started talking to him. And he just was telling me the craziest story, telling me that he was a retired arson investigator and that he had always loved and study the Dead Sea Scrolls, but he had recently taken another look at the Koppers girl. And he thought that he had deciphered something that nobody had been able to figure out for 16 years. Yeah, which I hadn't studied. I mean, I hadn't studied I didn't study biblical history when I was in Israel, I'd say, Jewish history and Middle Eastern history, but I didn't have I'd certainly seen the Dead Sea Scrolls knew a bit about the Dead Sea Scrolls. I never had. of a garbage call. And so here I am thinking like, just been living in three years I went for Christian Zionist Organization like, I do not know what the conference scroll is. So one thing that I do when I tell people about the book is just kind of like lay out in the beginning, you are still a good person and a strong believer and someone very aware of all that's going on in the world, even if you haven't heard about the covers. Right, right, because I hadn't heard about the copper scroll. And it's a crazy thing that wouldn't come across your radar,

right? I mean, everybody's heard about the Dead Sea Scrolls, absolutely found in 1948. Bedouin Shepherd just was looking for a sheep through a rock in a cave, whether he was trying to hurt the sheep or find the sheep, either one he heard, instead of a bleeding of a sheep, he heard a crashing of a pot. He's a dead sea scrolls, they came to light and they just ended up on the Antiquities market. And then people started realizing what they actually were and now it started this month. Major archaeological excavations and trying to figure out what is really there and then they almost didn't find this copper scroll though. Can you tell us how that happened?

Right so it was really a race between archaeologists and bet one once the that one found the first dead sea scrolls. But one would continue to find the next excuse. I mean, they're the kings of the desert so so they just knew they knew where the caves were they had heard rumors maybe of scroll cat scattered caves before but and half the time the most important cave which is cave for they found under the noses of archaeologists digging at Qumran during the daytime, and Bedouins. We're going and pulling out thousands of scroll fragments from Cape for at night so so they're good. I mean, they're really hard to be but in the case of cave three, so anytime we talk about the dead seas bouquets, we talked about them in numbers and according to the order they were found, and so as you can see scroll cave number three, that it was actually a team led by an archaeologist, an archaeologist from France named on read the culture song, they found this cave that they were really disappointed because the roof of the cave had collapsed in antiquity that they had one in one spin a robust library of dead sea scrolls. You know those classic jars that hold the Dead Sea Scrolls. So those were in there but they had crashed, exposing the scrolls inside to just weather and rodents for a couple thousand years. So they they saw fragments and rat's nest and kind of littered throughout the cave, but not too much. That was still salvageable. And so after is about a 10 day excavation and it was in the last hours they were wrapping up, you know, they've gotten all that they could, as soon as the last few hours of the last day of the excavation of cave number three, when one of the people on the team said this is actually a cave complex. I think there's a side chamber and what they saw was that Maybe it was when the the roof had collapsed or at some point, there was a wall against aside chambers. So in terms of, you know, castle terms, it would be like a false wall, you know, hiding a special nook, but but it was natural. It was God created. And so they chipped through the limestone. And what they saw on the other side was a man made shelf and resting on that shelf with two copper rolls. The and that was the copper scroll, and no, nothing had been found like it before or since it so it's really unusual. And it's not like any of the other dead sea scrolls, withdrawn parchment provirus or leather. It looked green, like the Statue of Liberty, and it was just sitting there and we always say copper scroll instead of copper scrolls, even though it was two of them. And but but we know that it had broken antiquity that probably when they were rolling it up, it's snapped because it's pretty clear that it used to be one long Interesting slightly don't say copper squirrels. But it was like seven feet long and a foot wide, making it one of the biggest most well preserved of all the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Yeah. So what is on the copper scroll?

It's like an old grocery list.

Yeah. So if you just you know, let's say that you're somebody because I have a person that has a book of all the Dead Sea Scrolls translated in English. If you pull out the copper scroll translation, it will be the most boring of all of them. In terms of that there's no narrative, there's no story. There's no prophet Daniel, or Isaiah is about over 56 locations. So it just reads really dryly. There's no verbs even so it'll just read like this over and over. It's a verbal treasure map and it will say where to go look, what you'll find when you get there and how deep to dig. And so it just repeats that pattern over and over. So It'll say like, under the it starts off under the ruins in the valley of a core, and then proceeds to tell you that there are steps that face to the east and go 40 cubits. And there you'll find treasure, and you should dig this deep to find it. So, I mean, yeah, courtyards and gutters and Paris styles and sister ends. And so it just has all of these kind of architectural descriptions that it just keeps diving into. And if you don't know where that is, it feels confusing. It feels really, really specific to that time period and impossible to understand in that way.

Yeah. And so this map is out there, or this verbal treasure map is out there, but nobody had cracked the code.

Exactly. And people just didn't know what to do with it. I mean, first, it's pretty clear that it must be connected to the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem because it's if you add up all the gold, silver, bronze, all of the treasure listed in the copper scroll, it would be the equivalent of 168 titles. precious metal. That's That's a lot. It's insane. And so that's that's according to what we know that a talent would be. Let's say that even a talent with less and pounds that we translate it to today, which I think we think one talent is the equivalent of 75 pounds, it would still be a ridiculous amount of treasures. So really the the Jewish Temple is the only place in Israel that would have had access to that kind of wealth. Also, because it uses words like sacred type priestly vestments, and so it also uses language that points to the temple. And so most archaeologists are most Dead Sea Scrolls scholars, because it is written the way it's written and there's nothing fanciful about it, there's nothing that feels like a myth about it. They think that it is authentic. They think that it's connected to the Jewish temple, but they didn't know what to do with it because it felt so incredibly specific to that time period that it was almost as if whoever had these items was writing a little notation to themselves, you know, after they got back from exile, how to go back and find these treasures and it would be impossible for us to read today. So there have been a few people before who have gone after the coppers called treasure, but that will really just three, but none of them were able to kind of seal the deal. They all may be advanced copper scroll knowledge and research and pursue but none of them were able to locate any of the treasure.

So you found out about this because you were pursuing a story for the Jerusalem connection. And you met this retired arson investigator from Oklahoma that changed your life.

Yeah, I was just looking for a break you know not to write about politics. So I thought, Well, at first I thought he might be crazy, you know, so I but I really he was delightfully crazy if that was the case, like I really liked him. But I'd never heard of the conference girls and That part sounded crazy to me. So I thought I like this guy. And I like his story. But Freeman knows the copper scrolls real. So I went home and just did a little research and you know, your one Wikipedia search away from finding out that the copper scrolls very real and exactly what he had presented to me because I even thought, you know, there must be another version of this. Like, if there was a verbal treasure map from the Jewish symbol, I would have heard about that. You would think so. Exactly. So then a few days passed, and I was just haunted by it. You know, I couldn't read enough about the copper scroll. So I decided to write a story about it mostly. So I can just keep talking to him. Keep asking him questions. Yeah. And so I published that first one, actually, in Jerusalem Post Even so, you know, it's kind of read by Israelis as well, and then published another article a longer article. After publishing a few articles. I went quiet, and I just kept following Jim following his story, and wondering if I should write a book about it. But I even talked to someone about not at National Geographic at the time, about writing a book about it, and said we love this story. We love its flavor. We don't publish things when there's not a fight. Yeah, so that's what that was kind of the commitment I made to myself. I'm not gonna write a book about this unless they find something. But it was actually after seven years of being involved in the story and staying really close to Jim Barfield and Chris Knight is another person on the team and Jim's wife and kind of just everybody involved and just stayed close to them and went with them to things and stay part of the story, almost like a historian of the project, right, but so much just happened with the human piece of it all. I eventually realized that this was a story that had to be read, even without a definitive find that it was just so insane, kind of how God had directed Jim and what all happened.

Yeah, because when this finally becomes public, it's gonna change the world.

Right? So I don't want to start writing the book then. Right.

Exactly. Exactly. So, Shelley, how did you go from being somebody that was interested, but skeptical to being somebody that's interested and fully involved with this project?

Yeah, I mean, usually, as a journalist, you're supposed to kind of keep keep a very neutral voice, which I think probably in the first couple of articles I did, but I went with them on an excavation in 2009. to Israel. So 10 years ago, you know, it was probably then that I got on camp goggles. You know, when you're at Christian summer camp, like, at first you kind of meet people and you think I don't really know if these are my people. But then by the end of the week at camp, like, you can't believe that you ever did life without them. So that's kind of what happens on digs, too. So I went there. There was an excavation in 2009. I'm with Jim and Chris and the whole game, and we just have bought I learned so much for them. We would study the Bible together. There's a lot of downtime when it comes. comes to archaeology, or at least in this case, there was a lot of downtime. And so it was a lot of just Bible study and discipleship and just having fun, I think at that point once their friends and also, once I'm kind of invested my own time and sweat and tears into the project, it was Yeah, no longer possibly to possible to be neutral. And

I really wanted to find something that's Well, yeah, you know, and really believe that the researches is onto something.

Yeah. And you got me one over to that side as well to

everyone starts a skeptic and I invite that right because that's how I started. But even if you stay a skeptic after reading the book, you know, this is just too unbelievable to be true. I do feel like the book walks people through learning more about the Dead Sea Scrolls learning about first century Jerusalem, Israel. And so that's my main goal. Just to get people excited about Israel and the Jewish people and its connection to our roots and to our faith and what all this means and how big God is in terms of what he's doing through archaeology to just these little chances for for the Bible's historicity to be proven true, but also had me and our guide is an intangible guide. So it feels very exciting and delightful. The times that you get to just been through archaeology, right, right. I can feel the God of the Bible through these artifacts.

Yeah. So you've been on an archaeological dig in Israel. That's pretty darn cool. Yeah.

Yeah, no, I ate a lot of popsicles. Yeah, I mean, I was kind of just you know, the historian. So, um, but but it was actually an excruciating experience in terms of all the drama and everything that unfolded which is too long the story, the

The book, which I'll

provide it was hard. You know, I'm not gonna paint it like that it was all romance. But you know you actually I should tell you this so you have impacted my life.

Oh really? Okay.

I doubt you even remember this conversation but you were just telling me how much you after that he read the book that you know you love archaeology and that you felt connected to Israel to and that you live there and that you liked this show digging for truth with associates for Biblical research. You are also in Pennsylvania. Yes. And so after you told me that and I never heard of them. So after you told me that I started watching this show and got their magazine Bible and spammed and friended on Facebook, Dr. Scott stripling, which is their main archaeologist who's taking it sheilo. And she was very connected to I feel like in a way the copper scroll to just in terms of teaching about tabernacle, temple history and all that. So So then I got really excited about what was happening. At sheilo. And so first, I decided to audit a class, Scott Stribling as a provost at a seminary called the Bible Seminary in Texas. So at first I thought, well, I'm just gonna audit this class because I only hear about what's going on at sheilo. I don't have time to take credit, but I'll audit it so I can just hear the stories. And so about a month in I realize, Oh, no, I want to do this. Like, I want to do this for credit because I'm realizing what all I don't know, one. And also just studying under believers, archaeology felt really refreshing because right, I always studied in Israel with secular professors. And so I always had to kind of apply like a faith filter to what I was learning. Sure. So it's refreshing not to have to do that. So anyways, so basically, I'm telling you that because of you and your advice, I ended up going back to school to study biblical archaeology, officially. Oh, wow. Not just reading for the book.

Wow. I mean, you were the one that connected me with Dr. Scott stripling, and I've had him on along the way, right. So phenomenal conversation. a phenomenal episode I learned so much

is I dig to be watched

by God. Yeah, it's it's fascinating. I felt really excited because I got to have the podcast released the week that everything was made public. Oh, nice. All these articles started popping up everywhere. And I was like yes, absolutely. So thank you for that connection. But I didn't realize that

that's pretty cool. It all comes around. Yeah, exactly. That's what you just have to be listening, listening to other believers

and what they're excited about. Exactly. And that's kind of what this whole along the way podcast is about is God is speaking to us through other people through the Word of God, through our circumstances. God is speaking to us all the time and he's always leading and guiding us. And I'm grateful that I got to be a part of your along the way journey in that regards. And that's that's encouraging to me to

also big things are happening in Pennsylvania clearly.

Back Back to What's happening with the copper scroll and I got to get to the point where we talked about the scans because when I saw Jim Barfield talking about that, I found him on a YouTube video talking about these scans. I was just absolutely blown away. Yeah, not that I didn't believe anything that you were saying it was just like more this is even more real,

right. No data that always helps and theories are theories, but data helps reinforce for sure. So, from that time from 2009, it was just a series of stops and starts for Jim Barfield and for his team, a lot of opposition for who he was for not being an academic and also the archaeologist that was the head of Qumran that had been the lead and that 2009 day died in a tragic cave accident and, and then the other archaeologist who had come alongside Jim in the beginning also died from cancer. And so it just it was a lot of setbacks. It was a lot of starting over just Even with relationship building, and so it was at one point that it was suggested to Jim to meet with a member of Knesset Moshe Eglin whose was at the time Israel's Deputy Speaker of the Knesset, which that's the Knesset is like their Congress, you know, parliamentary system. And I had fallen on shadeland just as someone who follows Israel's politics and I thought this is a person who just would have the courage to push past bureaucracy or whatever any of these other hurdles were of hurting anybody's feelings, any archaeologist feelings or any bureaucrats feelings. So Jim had the chance to present the research to him in New York while he was there for kind of a rally for his own political party. And I didn't know I had a positive feeling about just Moshe faithlyn and Jim Barfield meeting I didn't really know what would come from it. And at that point, a lot of people had come to Jim's aid and and had allied with Jen just religious and political leaders. I hadn't seen Much like materialized from that Alliance other than that it was nice. Moshe biglan said at some point in the presentation, he said, Wait, when's the next time you're in Israel? And Jim told him I'll be there in a couple weeks. And he said, do you have that metal detector in Israel? Because Jim had told him I have this $10,000 Lauren's metal detector that can tell the difference between ferrous and non ferrous metals and how deep they are. And so the perfect for kind of the copper scroll situation. And Jim said, Well, I can I can get the get the scanner there. And so he said, Okay, great. I have something called canessa immunity. I'm just gonna scan it. And let's just do a little scanning. You know, which Jim had for years been trying to once it was realized that it was going to be kind of impossible to dig at Qumran, which is already a pretty sacred site for Israel and its relationship with the Dead Sea Scrolls. He had been pursuing just doing an electronic survey of it. Since after all the copper scrolls like pointing towards metal that's helpful. So he did so Jim met him there Jim's wife and son and Kind of everyone understood, this is the moment this is our chance we can't afford false positives we hope for no negatives. And so you know, they've just done everything to prepare and everybody wanted to be there. I was actually in the hospital having my fourth child so I was like on standby on the phone kind of hearing what they had, what was going on. And although I did get to be there for the initial meeting with lawsuit by Glenn and so and it just was all happening so fast at that point, so he did he scanned five of the sites that Jim had targeted and some of them just I mean, it was cool runs towards them hours like it was just in the blatantly he just walked in and did it a while the head of Qumran was friends with Jim was okay with Jim and the security guard just seems to purposefully look the other way. But there they were in broad daylight, you know, mostly fake little paid for his entry ticket with his credit card with his name on it. People were looking at him where I mean, Israel is a small country, you know who's right, right, right. There's very much understood who he was. And that nobody knew he wasn't an archaeologist. But still so he did. He did the scan and Jim and his team went down to end getting right afterwards because it's not the type of metal of satin detector that gives you an immediate review and I'll download the data. And so there he was like sitting on a picnic bench and Getty, and he pulls up each of the sites and each of the sites had a positive read that something big and something non ferrous, so gold silver bonds was buried deep underground, both info Ron and at one site outside of Quran but the gym had long felt like was connected to the copper scroll. Right? And it's research pointed to that. So it was just kind of not an aha moment because Jim had always believed in his research, but if there had ever been any doubt if there had ever been any confusion, you know, if he had made any missteps it just felt like this is real.

This is no longer just theory like something is there. Also Jim could have never promised accomplishable doesn't say that this treasure would still be there. I mean, exact Romans or whoever would have gone through the land. And they were looking, I mean, they wanted to suck the temple Treasury as much as they could, and use the money to build the Coliseum. So certainly we couldn't say whether or not it was still there. So it also was just very affirming that maybe not all 57 of the hordes are still there, but we at least know five are.

And those are pretty important ones

are five exactly exactly what was some of like, the most important and biggest locations for the copper scroll?

Yeah. So what is keeping these things for being uncovered?

So that's the million dollar question. I could probably give a lot of reasons of why I think this is the case. But the most obvious is just bureaucracy. The fact that jumpstart an archaeologist, the political scientist situation in Israel has been less than stable, especially three elections in one year, and also the political situation with it being not Israel. Proper that it's Area C, which means that anything that comes out of the ground in that area is disputed property, and that the archaeologists over Qumran have declared it a closed archaeological site. I'm sure Jim's not the only person who is asking to excavate or asking to partner with an archaeologist to further excavate go on. So I think they just eventually got so tired of the request and kumaran has been excavated to the last level of habitation. It hasn't been excavated in the way that the coppers crow demands where you're digging for treasure, because that's not what archaeologists do. So that's the other thing. Is that what Jim's asking someone to do occupies this curious space, because it's not archaeology. It's treasure hunting. I mean, Jim always says he's not a treasure hunter. And he means that in terms of he's not seeking these things for himself. Right, right. But it's also not archaeology because this is not what archaeologists do. They don't take an ancient document and go looking for the treasure that are promises they dig down to the last level of habitation the last time people We're living in a site and trying to analyze its remains, but they don't dig holes based off treasure.

Right. Right. That's been hard. Basically, it's in the Lord's hands of when this comes?

I think so. He does have the book and just to kind of media that we've done since and, and a lot of Israelis awakening to what we're saying, and what's going on has been very helpful. And so a lot of people in politics, I'll just kind of be vague about this, because this is this part is, you know, not in writing, but have come to Jim's aid and have said, We want to help you. And we want to help move this thing along from a top down level rather than bottom up, which is what he's always done before. But losing power has been really questionable in the last year. So I think Jim has just submitted to waiting that part out but hopefully, you know, it's the classic kind of like will friends in high places kind of be able to move this on? I don't know. I hope so. You know, also an earthquake could just kind of do the trick to.

Yeah, but that could potentially damage something. Yeah,

exactly. But it isn't a fault line. So I have sort of like thought that before. And there's even proof that an earthquake has happened to come around before. Like, you can see evidence of destruction, the way certain stairsteps steps were destroyed. And sure. And so I have thought about that. I was like, Well, one way God can get all the credit.

Absolutely. It's really interesting to know that like, you know, when you look at the Bible, and you look at prophecy of what is to come regarding the rebuilding of the temple, and the end time prophecy and things like that, this could be a catalyst of those things coming to be or it could be those things need to happen before this could be released. Who knows it's really in the Lord's hands. And all we can do is pray that God's timing is perfect, and that it will be revealed at the right time. And that the right people will be able To get those metals out of there, get those treasure out of there and get it to the appropriate places and it wouldn't be stolen.

It's true. I always think about, you know, the prophets definitely point to a time in the future, that the Temple Mount will be a source of inspiration and a source of delight, which it's not right now, you know, it's a source of tension. And so I always think about just the timing of these things being revealed, it's probably directly related to the situation on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. And there's a verse in Micah, the fourth chapter, Micah, Micah says in the last day, the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established just Chief among the nations and it will be raised above the hills and the peoples will stream to it. So even just enough, you know, to line prophecy. It requires Israel being a modern nation again, it requires Jews coming from all over the world back to Israel. And then it requires what happened in 67, for Israel to have sovereignty over the time. Come out. And so I feel like for the last kind of final step in that, in terms of I don't, I don't know what God's timing or anything is, but just in this prophecy that it will be Chief among the nations that we will all look towards Jerusalem and that it will be a source of peace and not tension. And that is definitely not where we're at. So I feel like that's the final piece of the, you know, prophetic pie.

Yeah, praying for the peace of Jerusalem is a real thing to do.

So if you could just add into that the restoration of Israel's national gallery I think, is it Jim calls it a lot of times but just that this is God's bride, then perhaps she needs to come along with a gallery and for that to happen. So, right, we'll see. But the whole process is I just hope, also just a way for people to dig into the prophets and dig into the Bible and just realize like there is so much there. So if you feel like the Bible is something that has grown older stale to you. It's just because you're reading the same 30% over and over and the process of writing this book and just thinking about the Bible and Israel and new ways. I mean, there's threads that are there are just amazing.

And how it all pieces and with archaeology is pretty delightful. That's awesome.

I was so grateful that you've written that book and exposed me to the whole copper scroll project. But back to your personal life. What is the first thing that you remember God speaking to you? What did he say? And how did it change you?

Well, besides read your junk mail?

Yeah, um, well, oddly, it was just even just went where I went to college. Well, okay, I hate when people talk about dreams. But you know, I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people are going to turn their brains off whenever I bring up a dream, but it's not like I've got tons of them were God spoke clearly to me. But I have this God

does speak through dreams all the time though. It's all throughout the Bible. It's all throughout modern life too. I've had many dreams where I know God has spoken to me through that. So I'm right there with his show.

Okay, okay, good. I just feel like it's always like a charismatic litmus test. So I hate throwing it out there, you know? Yeah, sorry, I probably haven't said this too many times. I was really struggling when I came back from Israel because we'd been in a messianic church and Israel, a messianic congregation. And then so we were back in the states and just finding a church. So I felt like I had experienced this thing that was huge and, and, and mind blowing just in terms of rediscovering the roots of my faith in terms of Jewish practices in the Hebrew Bible, and learning Hebrew and all these things. So I was just really excited. And then I come back to the States. And so a lot of the congregations that maybe would have been comfortable to me before. We're no longer that stimulating, and I didn't like feeling judgmental of congregations or you know, Maybe pastors that weren't filling my spiritual love tank, I guess in terms of what they were teaching about, and my husband's military, so we move a lot. So it's kind of like I was constantly having to find a new church, and I think congregation and place of worship and so I just didn't like that feeling. I'm a pastor's daughter. So I don't want to feel judgmental of any church. And so I was trying to decide, like, what I'd be more comfortable in the Messianic movement. Because that's where I was spiritual home for the years that we're in Jerusalem. We're actually the youth pastors that are messianic congregation of our shadow. And so then I started, we started visiting some messianic congregations. And you know, it's different in the States because everybody's got to go to if you're a believer, it doesn't matter if you're like a Filipino worker in Israel, or Roman Catholic or a Christian from Louisiana, like you're all going to the same church because there's only one, you know, in terms of like your Israeli town, it's just in your mind art. So that was helpful in that I didn't need a choice but so I started going to messianic churches and even though like their teaching was great, I just also didn't feel comfortable or that that was the right answer for us as a family and I had been nurtured in the church, you know, in the Christian church as a pastor's daughter, and had had a really positive experience always in the church. I know other people are preachers, kids that can go other ways, but it's been like an incredible place for me to grow and learn. Like this is what we're struggling with as a family and also my husband because he had had the same experiences in Israel. And in the dream, I was in my father's church. So the church I'd grown up and my whole life I was in the lobby of the church looking into the congregation but not going in an IDF officer like a girl came up and told me you're safe here. Just go up to be at it. And when I woke up, I realized that like the answer to this question, I had a where would be our spiritual now that we're back in The States after this profound experience in Israel was like that we were to stay in the church that this was what had nurtured and and had fed me for my whole life. But that I was to continue seeking this parallel understanding and deeper roots into the Hebrew Scriptures and how the Messianic thread that that winds the whole Bible together, and that I was supposed to share that with Christians as a student and as a teacher. That was such a relief. Yeah, I felt like I could be in both the church was where I was going to stay, but that I can bring to it what I had learned and what I was still learning. And so that's been I mean, that was 1015 years ago, but that has been the constant of no matter how, where we move or what we do. Like in my church when we live in Charleston, we hosted a vacation Bible school that was dead sea scrolls Bible study. What's going on a caves, like a scavenger hunt for scrolls throughout the pews. I taught a class I go to Anglican congregation here in Virginia, and I taught a class called Israel matters. So just kind of being active and involved with my church, but doing it kind of the only way that I feel super stoked.

Well, that's good. You found your your find your purpose. And it's great that God spoke to you through that dream. If God's given me that particular dream, it would have meant something totally different. But he spoke to you in a way that you could understand and I love that God does that. Right. And as we look back at our life, Shelley, what has happened in your life that showed you that Jesus was actually there walking with you, but you didn't feel that in the moment. But when you look back, you realize that Jesus was there?

Well, I feel like I'm not the best in terms of making decisions. You know that I'll hear God's voice and then make a decision from that. It's usually like I need God to close a little Lot of doors only remaining open,

what do you need God to take away all your options? So you just left?

Exactly, exactly. So that's where I feel like I don't deserve any credit in terms of like, God's leading and direction in my life, I've always needed him to close a lot of doors and only open one. And so that being the case, I fell in love with a man who wanted to go to medical school, and therefore this was the only place that I could study abroad. And he said, we went desert, you know, that I would, I would get one job offer. And so I would take that job offer just a whole series of always the path being pretty clear. But what's amazing to me and this is true with every believer, even in the moment when I didn't feel like God had provided me with a very clear directive. When I look back at my life, you know, just like sitting in airports thinking, should I write a book? I don't want to write a book. Having these struggles and prayers of god yeah, that I can Just see his handprint over every bit of it. And so the things that are required the most patience and endurance like following an archaeological, you know, dig and story that ultimately took 10 years before we had something like really tangible to hold up. I feel like those are the ones where I see God the clearest, because it has required just so much patience and waiting on my part. Whereas the immediate wins always feel great in human terms. But aren't the most clear to me in terms of that God's hand was in it. So clear direction, lots of closed doors, lots of waiting. And that's, that's how I'm looking back on my life. see God pushing me down the path that he had for me.

Well, that's good. So you don't look at closed doors as bad or helpful. You look at them as okay. God's that's helping me with this. It's absolutely jelly. If you could go back in the past and have coffee with young Shelly, whatever age you'd like to go back to a period of life where you know that you might have been struggling with something, or you just needed some encouragement. What would you tell yourself? And how would you respond to you think

so for while living in Israel? I mean, my faith did go through, you know, it wasn't all just a trajectory of growth that I'm getting baptized in the Jordan and you know, walking the land that Jesus walked, like, I was also suddenly a religious minority and facing really hard questions from my secular classmates and my secular professors about my own beliefs. And one of those that really just threw me was that I had never in the process of discovering Jewish Jesus, I had never really exercised any kind of faith understanding of how Paul was, was different than Jesus. You know, Obviously, to be a Christian, I believe in the death, threat and resurrection of Jesus and His purpose on this earth. I didn't ever really come to understand that, wait a minute, also a lot of my faith and theology comes from, from the writings of Paul. And as much as I need to believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus, I also need to believe in the conversion of Paul on the roads and as you know, that, that that dramatic moment of Jesus showing himself to Paul also had to be very real to me. And I wasn't really I went through a period that I could defend Jesus to my classmates, because to me, there's always been just something so compelling and beautiful about the story of Jesus and the way God chose to send them the side of the world. That that was never the problem. The problem was me defending Paul. And I just went through a period that I only read the Old Testament in the Gospels and didn't read Paul, and I just wanted to see if like my faith could hold without Paul. I know this sounds really strange and almost sounds like an intellectual exercise. But it was a real crisis of faith, because Paul gives us so much of our theology. And so what I wish I could tell that Shelley that probably wasted two years not reading Paul was to just focus on Ephesians that it's Paul's book of Ephesians. That I feel like his theology and his walk with God comes to its most mature form in revealing to the world, how we are supposed to walk with God and how we are supposed to dwell with God and God in us and just that whole concept of living a life that is holy and pleasing to the Lord, through Jesus and through God, our Creator and with the Holy Spirit. Once I kind of came back and read Ephesians And tried to like reacquaint myself with Paul. I also read a book by Brad young called Paul, the Jewish rabbi. I think that was the name of it. But he also kind of presents this struggle as it had occurred to him or as it had occurred to his own students. So I don't think it's so uncommon for people that are diving into Jewish roots, but are also maintaining a Christian faith. Anyways, so even to this day, like Ephesians is the book for me that just really centers my soul. Yeah, so getting getting to know Paul again, I should have never throw them out. I should have just read Ephesians. And that and that Paul is a incredibly important part of our theology.

Absolutely he is. And it's interesting, my personal crux of faith happened when I was 1415. And it came around the verse you know, the second Timothy 316, where Paul says to Timothy that All scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. And I knew that we considered all of Scripture, all the Bible to be scripture. And so the thing that I was struggling with was did Paul consider his own writings to be scripture? I just needed something to validate Paul's writings. What Paul was saying to be true

to me, because you dealt with this at 14.

I just needed some, some validation that Paul, because I didn't think that Paul would be considering his own writings to be scripture that just didn't make any sense. And I didn't even need them to be scripture in the sense of like, looking at the validity and the weightiness of the Old Testament. I just needed something else to confirm that. And so I had a conversation with my pastor, because I was trying to like, just keep this, keep my questions internal, but still ask the questions that were kind of around that to put the things together myself and he brought me to the second Peter 315. And it says, And remember, our Lord's patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him speaking these things in all his letters, some of his comments are hard to understand. And those who are ignorant and unstable, have twisted his letters to mean something quite different. They are to do with other parts of Scripture and will result in their destruction. Here's Peter, who was one of the people that actually walked with Jesus giving credence to who Paul is and his writing city and his writings. And so I was just like, Well, I have no more reservations about Paul, I can totally trust his stuff again. So it's interesting that you kind of had this same brain, a similar,

although I can't believe like, I don't think at 14 I would have been able to put that together that sincerely. But also I love that your pastor was ready to answer that question. I mean, that was a very thoughtful answer. So see, I mean, says nothing Peter wasn't struggling with as well or at least was aware of other people struggling.

Yeah, it's interesting. God, you know, God puts people in our path along the way to help us guide us along the way so that we are drawn closer to him. And we get to the place where we can commune with him. And that's what this podcast is all about and trying to learn from other people's life's journey with the Lord, the things that we've learned the things that we've experienced, and how they draw us closer to the Lord and hopefully by listening more from your story I can grow as a person in the people listening to this can grow with the Lord as well. Do you have any closing Shelley? Do you have any life verses that you would like to share with people here?

I see it Well, I mean, now that Michael versus just in my head I'm always trying to just put Israel in people's heads and hearts and prayer lives so to Yeah, Michael for one and the last days the mountain of Lourdes temple will be established as Chief among the nations it will be raised above the hills and peoples will stream to it actually named my firstborn Micah, so there's putting some some weight behind a favorite profit. Absolutely. Yeah, Mike. It just seems to Like also that he already kind of vision and understood that the covenant would be extended outside of the Abrahamic Covenant, but it would be extended to Gentiles as well. And he, he talks about that, you know, he has a short book, but he gives lots of vision for that to just our inclusion into the covenant and what that means, but it also means caring about the land and the people.

Absolutely. Shelley, can you tell our listeners how to get ahold of you? How to find you on the internet and the copper scroll project.

So Jim Barfield has a website. It's the copper scroll project. com. I have a website, Shelley nice calm. That's Shelly with two E's. And then my organization is the Jerusalem connection. And we're te JCI dot o RG. And then the book can just be found anywhere that people get books.

I'll be providing links for those in the show notes for sure. Well, thanks,

john. This was awesome. I feel edified. Oh good.

I do. I do too. That's one of the things I love about these conversations. Yeah. Well, Shelly. Thank you. So much for allowing me to join you along your way. When you were in search for hidden treasure, you need to look for clues that are along the way. It's not nearly as simple as it might seem. But if you know the right context, you have a true shot real understanding. When I was a kid, I was convinced that I would one day find buried treasure. There were a few books in my local library that I couldn't get enough of. They had stories of real treasure hunters and maps of their journeys where an X always marked the spot. I didn't have any pirate made maps, so I decided to draw my own. The next logical step was to follow said map to wherever it led. And then I would dig until I got tired. My eight year old logic was pretty solid, at least in my mind. I had a map I dug, there should be treasure, but there never was. The only thing that I found was trouble. Especially when I did infill in one of the bigger holes in the yard. I dad didn't see the hole. Well, he was cutting the grass, and he fell in and broke our tractor. Well, I guess I broke the tractor, I got in trouble, and I had to fill it in right away. The reason I tell you this story is because even though it's something funny that I did as a kid, I learned that I can't make my own map and follow it to real treasure. Just because I wanted it to be real didn't mean that my map or the treasure was real. We need to follow a map that is made by a trustworthy Map Maker. God has mapped out the plan for our lives. But the real question is, are we following his map or the one that we've made for ourselves? My map that I drew with a crayon on a construction paper, led to nowhere and ended up getting me in trouble. I've since learned to read maps properly. There are keys and legends designed on the map so that if you follow it, you can get to your destination. God has a path laid out for each of us to follow, but we need to decide to follow along his path. I hope you choose to do that today. Even though Shelly was originally skeptical about what she had been told about the copper scroll, she kept searching for truth and came to her own conclusion. I've seen the readouts of Jim Barfield scans of Qumran, and I'm a believer that not only was the treasure there hidden in antiquity, but there is large deposit there today. I hope and pray that that treasure will be revealed So, but if it is what we really think it is, then this will be an exciting time for sure. I highly suggest reading Shelley's book, the copper scroll project Pretty soon, because you'll have a head start understanding the story when it all comes to light. And of course, it's a great read. I'll be providing Shelley's links in the show notes. Thanks you for listening to it along the way. If you've enjoyed joining me along my way, please share this with a friend who you think will be encouraged by this podcast. Also, please rate and review along the way on iTunes that helps more people discover along the way. And subscribe to this podcast on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcast and you can follow us on Facebook, Instagram and at my website along the way dot media. I hope that you've enjoyed this part of my journey. And may you realize when Jesus is walking with you along your way