“The Most Reluctant Convert” Max McLean and Norman Stone AlongTheWay Special Edition

Welcome to along the way. I'm John Matarazzo. Your host and fellow traveler, thank you for joining me along my way is I try to become more like Jesus every day. The goal of along the way is to identify the moments in life that Jesus really is walking with us and trying to get our attention. But just like the disciples along the way to a madness, we are missing those moments that our hearts are burning within us. I want us to identify these moments, learn from others and apply those lessons to our lives so that we don't miss the blessings God has for us along the way in our life's journey. Since I started working at charisma media, I've had the opportunity to do podcast interviews that I wouldn't normally consider an along the way episode, because I was doing the interview for charisma news or some other format. And I've also been interviewed on other people's podcasts to those have been great opportunities as well as interesting conversations. And I want to make sure that I share them with you as well. I love CS Lewis's books, The Chronicles of Narnia, Screwtape Letters and the out of the silent Planet series. But the man was way more than just a great author. He was what he called the most reluctant convert. Now, Max McLean and Norman stone have joined forces to take CS Lewis his life story to the big screen. The film is an adaptation of Max McLean's one man stage play. The two overcame many challenges making this film during the COVID lockdown, I had the opportunity to see this film on the big screen. And it is available now to watch on streaming platforms, which I highly recommend. I'll get to our conversation in just a moment. But I want to thank you for listening to along the way. All of my episodes and social links are available at my website. Along the way, dot media. You can also join my email list to get updates right in your inbox. All the links from this episode will be in the show notes. And now here's my conversation with Norman stone, followed by Max McLean, about the making of the most reluctant convert, enjoy. Well, I'm very excited to have Norman stone with me here on the charisma news podcast. He's actually this is really cool. He's in just outside of Glasgow, Scotland. And we're going to be talking about this film that he is the screenwriter for the director producer wears a lot of hats on this. And I actually had the opportunity to see this on the big screen. And it is the film, the most reluctant convert the untold story of CS Lewis and CS Lewis is for me, he's a general in the faith, especially in the area of apologetics. And I am just honored to be able to talk to the man that has taken this amazing story and put it to the silver screen and helps convert it to the silver screen. So Norman, welcome to the charisma news podcast.

I feel very welcome already. Thank you.

Oh, very good. Very good. So let's let's just start off with this film. I had the pleasure of seeing it on the big screen. I really kind of stumbled upon it. I didn't realize that it was it was out and it was available. And then I also found out that my family back in Pittsburgh, they they watched it too and just rave reviews from all of us. I loved seeing his I love seeing CS Lewis his life portrayed in a way that you know, you read The Chronicles of Narnia, you hear little things, but the way that it's it's really told through Max McLean, his acting and then as the elder CES. Just could you just tell me about how you got involved with this project and how it came together.

Sure. I'm bit known in the industry for doing CS Lewis stuff. I invented the original Shadowlands as before the feature film and before the theater piece, and that was straight primer all the way through and did very well it went all over the world on that. And I didn't another couple of things. I did another couple of things as well. But my friend and colleague is max McLean as actor Christian guy has a theater group called FPA in New York. I've known him for years. And he's very good on Lewis. He's researched him well he does various shows. It can be CS Lewis on stage. It can do things like the great divorce and stuff on stage. He's got an understanding of Lewis like very few people I've ever had. He asked me Would this latest This is three years ago now. The latest one man show of Lucy did he put on stage? Would I be able to put it on film screen I said it's up to the script man through the you know, who knows? It's Have a look at it was brilliant script. It was basically surprised by Joy great book. And he done it for stage so craftily so well done so seamlessly Lewis's words. Then he asked me to do it because obviously that wasn't a that was afraid to please not film. Sure. He asked me to do the screenplay. So we did in remarkable short time. And it began to really come together. And I was able to use certain techniques and styles and keep the entertainment high, as well as the content high. It is not a boring film. But it is an important film. I think. And I'm not saying that other people have said that for it. And it's taken off, just taken off. Yeah, Louis still has a way of communicating matters of the faith in a way that I don't know anyone else who has ever done that. And he said, I'm not an evangelist, but I am a truthful follower of Christ. And then bingo, there you have it, it worked. And he adapts very well to the screen as it turns out, so there we are.

Very cool. So you mentioned that you, you did the original Shadowlands. How did that come about? Like I want to hear about your desire to tell CS Lewis his story. Because it's one thing to just have a hero figure in history that you know a lot about, but it's another thing to actually take their work and show that on on the big screen and show that in different in different media. I mean, that it takes passion and commitment. It

is yes, the original Shadowlands was for television. That was in 1984. I just don't know back in 1980 81, I've done a film about a Christian blind, Cornish poet. I know how to find. And basically he was very, very, very good in the poetry world. And he was nearing the end of his life. And when I spoke to me hadn't heard or seen for 25 years. Can you imagine that? Wow, he you got better than anyone I've ever met. There was no middleman with Jeff Clemmer, that was his name. Anyway, I did the film, it got an award and was well received. And I began to realize it was because he had earned the right to be heard. You know, we often preach and push things around as if everyone owes us a listening. They don't. But if you've been through the middle and back, you tend to listen to people more. And Jack Clemmer had done that. And it was a fantastic story of how he became a Christian and stuff. And the BBC did it. And the response was, Oh, my goodness, when he just listened to that guy, because he earned the right to be heard. So when there was a success, I took about two and a half seconds to think, who else would know who's the right to be heard? CS Lewis. Now, I had not been brought up on 90 and stuff as a kid. But I looked into Louis and already obviously knew him, but I thought it was a Christian, but the when you look into it, it's an amazing life, that he had an amazing understanding, a real gift, expressing that. So that came that became the first Shadowlands, his relationship with joy Davidman, mainly that centered on and because of that, that was my next big film work. I did another couple of films at the same time, but that one, Shadowlands really went off around the world. Lewis talks to people without effort, it would seem, he tells the truth, right, without effort, he actually has been there and back again, but you listen to him because he's, he's still got the scars, Somebody wanna said to me, and that's right. So he's worth listening to

Absolutely. There's almost a limitless source of information about his writings, and there's books about his writings even because he's just been that inspirational. Yeah. So first off, thank you so much for taking that interest, and just really the call of God and, and, you know, God put his finger on something, and you responded to it, and then really opened up a big door where more people are interested in CS Lewis, because of things like Shadow Lands and shoe you know, I'm thinking, you know, that you said about the BBC film, but I grew up watching the BBC, dramas of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and Prince Caspian. And you know those things. And so I'm sure that because of the success of what you did, that kind of translated to them wanting to be able to dramatize and put those put those great stories on the screen as well. So I don't think I don't think my childhood would

it be? Well, maybe my childhood would have

been as colorful if it hadn't been for the steps that you take. And so thank you, as I'm realizing this right now, I think you had, I think you had a great party.

But well, back then, when I did Shetlands, the, somebody a journalist asked me a question. He said, What are you hoping to achieve with this film? And I had to think on my feet and I said, Well, you I'd like to swing open the library doors. And you make a very good point there because I think, I mean, Louis has sold over a quarter of a billion books. Yes, that was a big difference. billion books. I don't know if anyone else has done that. So you have this man who had books are all out there winking Go, go figure, I can alert people's hearts or minds or brains or hungers. I can just say that reading is there. So we have an incredible resource of looses truth and a way of expressing things very, very well. But we also have a way of opening that door with a key like a filmora, or a stage play.

Yeah. And speaking of stage play, I mean, you and Max work together on this. And Max played the part of the elder CES. And I just love how this film, it really felt like a one man play that just kind of grew into and it's almost like you came come into the imagination and the memories of it. It was done in a way that I've never seen anything quite like that. Maybe it broke the fourth wall, but seamlessly. Yeah, I

make a point.

Can I just hear about that? Oh, yeah, I have

to confess this is why I'm over running. It used to say, I stole it from Dickens. Okay. Because when you

can steal from Dickens anytime. That's fun.

When A Christmas Carol, which you have seen or read, or both, when the old unrepentant sinner Scrooge is woken up by the ghosts of Christmas past, he is taken physically back to his childhood there is as a young lad at school, left behind, nobody wants him before his sister turns up and he gets taken away. And he looks at himself. And I always thought, from an early age, I thought that is really powerful. Because he is there present looking at himself before he was ruined by his own terrible miserliness and so on. So if you can actually take an audience with you into a person's past, and if you can get the older Louis commenting like a guide about what's going on, and before you know it, he's in the scene with them. And he's going through his life. It's doubly powerful. It works. So I experimented with it, and I loved it. It was good fun. And it worked.

I loved it, too. And when you say that, it definitely does have that feel. Without the The Haunting aspect of it that the Christmas Carol does, yeah, you use that same technique, but in a different way. And you get a different feeling. But you get a very powerful result. And I love that the elder CES is definitely a guide in this the guide Narrator type of person. Yeah, it's, it's done very well. And I appreciate it. And of

course, we didn't make up his words. The true. Yeah, it's using Louis's words, more or less all the time anyway. So it's not like we're putting words into his mouth that he wouldn't say, you know, he authored most of those words, himself. So you do get really to the bone straightaway bang.

Now, I noticed that in the film, there was something at the beginning, you guys kind of had to had to explain that this was filmed under very interesting times. I mean, we had a pandemic going on, where it was very strict lockdowns. But none of the characters were wearing masks in the film. But you guys had to deal with some things and unique ways. Can you can you talk about the making of the film during that time period, especially because you're on location? This isn't on a soundstage somewhere?

Yes. Well, no, it isn't. And that was a problem. No one else was filming. At that time. We seem to be the only crew that doing it. And we had to pay huge amounts per test. We had to do all the due diligence and pay a lot of money just to make sure we kept safe. But there's something more than that. Yes, we were filming during that time. But as I look to Lewis's power of speech and words, historically, he went up to London, to appear on the BBC at their request to explain the Christian faith to people who were being bombed to bits by Hitler in the Blitz, okay. So he went up into the bombs talk about that, and apparently, many public house public landlords will be shouting, quiet, everybody. Mr. Lewis is on the radio, and they'll be quiet and they sit there be listening to Lewis explain the Christian faith. I find that fantastic. Now, the relevance here is never since the Blitz has Britain and probably as though Britain, Britain has come to terms with it had to come to terms of his own mortality, because Mrs. McCafferty down the road in 1942 may have been blown up by Hitler's bombs, but now he's died if the same equivalent of a night near neighbor being dying from COVID. When COVID came sweeping across our societies, you couldn't pretend you're just a happy consumer with two and a half kids and a nice extra car, or whatever you were told we had to do. And that was the meaning of life it isn't. And people faced mortality, their own mortality, never as much as since the Blitz in London. And Lewis spoke to that in London during the Blitz he spoke to us now speaks to us now. And we have a reason to know that life is not endless. And Alicia.

Yeah, definitely. I want to hear you talk about the fact that you were able to go on, on location for a lot of these places that Lewis actually was, and I don't want to give away the ending of it. But I mean, the reveal at the end just kind of gave me chills of where where he actually was, but could you talk about the importance of going to these actual locations that you could?

Yes, there is something about being in the actual same place. Not always, but we lose his life. Yes. The house where he lived, the kitchens, and everything happened. We filmed there in that house. We went to his rooms in more than courage, Oxford, that close does and all that place is fantastic. There's a place called Addison's walkway really prepared Lewis to accept the faith. And we went on that the same place. Wonderful place in Oxford. So it wasn't a case of could we build it? Yeah. Why build it when it's there? And we need it. It's a lot cheaper not to build. But you do have something of an atmospheric. You do have something. When he talks about this? Well, there it is. And it went extraordinary. Well, we had to shoot it very quickly. But fortunately, that doesn't show and the crew will who are a very top professional feature film crew that Kenneth Branagh uses, who did Belfast and all these things. And they all didn't just come on work. And they talk about Lewis through their lunchtime, they were completely taken by the story. One or two had been great Nonya fans, and this top professional crew threw themselves at this and owned it. So they actually appear in the film themselves at times, especially at the beginning. So after that, it was fairly easy. I mustn't take credit for all this stuff. The team was what makes the whole thing work, but it is unusual. And I hope it's an unusual film that does both sides of the Christian divide have had letters and emails from people who aren't Christians. And I've had loads from those are, but it should go across the board. If there's a way of telling a story. Tell it and we've experimented a bit with them. It was great fun.

What is your favorite work of Lewis's to mean in books and books? Yeah,

this is gonna sound odd. Probably A Grief Observed. Now I love the Mere Christianity. Yes, good. And of course, surprised by joy. Fantastic, which is what we enjoyed ourselves within this film. But when Joy Davidman died, his wife died after getting better being healed. And just when they thought they were free of the castle of the giant despair, as he put it, she was snatched back and died horribly, actually. And he was not for six. But he wrote a book called A Grief Observed and there are no Hallelujah Chorus is at the end. But as always, he was relentlessly honest. And if I am honest with you, I know people that have burst into tears Christian and non Christian by reading that book. He's just so straightforward doing it, but he writes it as a Christian, still going through the mail still being backed up and so on. Before I did the original Shadowlands, I met a very interesting lady who's lived in a Miss Marple coffee just outside of just outside of Oxford, and she'd known Lewis well, and she knew don't go David and, and well. And I said to her, tell me this amazing book called A Grief Observed or I knew that yes, I know that. And I said, well, it doesn't say anywhere that he got back his faith at anytime that book ends with the honest bleakness of death, but with something else after that, but did he ever get his faith fully back? I need to know that from someone who knew him? And she said, Oh, yes, in the end, you know, he was stronger than ever. And then She leant forward. I can see her now. And she said, but do you know, you could always see the scars? And I said, That's it got the film. Wow, is it and that book does that in the end with that feeling. So here on the right to be heard, after all, that's all I'd say. I think we're now out of time. I love that got somebody else coming on. Ma'am, oh, sure, sure. Well,

I just want to thank anyone else that so they will Thank you, Norman for your time. I appreciate it. The and I'll provide all the all the information so that people can watch this film. And they can check it out at CS Lewis movie.com. Thank you for doing and, yes. Thank you so much, Norman. I appreciate it.

Thank you, John. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you. And coming up

in a moment, actor Max McLean opens up about his portrayal of the man himself, CS Lewis, right after this short message.

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We want to thank my pillow for sponsoring the charisma Podcast Network, go to my pillow.com to receive the Giza dream sheets for 60% off, you will receive a set for as low as $39.99. Also, for a limited time with any purchase, you will receive Mike's softcover book absolutely free when you use the promo code charisma. Once again, go to my pillow.com and enter the promo code charisma or call 800-598-1793 for this amazing offer. Well, I am here with Max McClain of the fellowship for performing arts a phenomenal group that he started. And they've done many plays a lot of them based around CS Lewis, his works. But right now we're going to talk about one that he created as a one man show called The most reluctant convert, which has now turned into a phenomenal film, which I had the opportunity to see on the big screen. So I'm really excited to talk with Max McLean. Thanks so much for being on the charisma news podcast, Max.

Thank you, John.

So how long have you been doing CS Lewis plays? And how did you come up with the scripts for the most reluctant convert?

Yeah. I've been working with Lewis for about 15 plus years, maybe 17 years. Screwtape Letters was our first and the great divorce. It was because of Screwtape. And the great divorce in the fact that both deal with aspects of his conversion. And his resistance to conversion. In the case of of Screwtape, it was how the spiritual warfare would keep him away from Christ. Yeah. And in the great divorce, it was how he resisted the Holy Spirit, both ways. And so they're very personal, both those books. So it made me go back to his memoir, surprised by joy, which is the, what he calls the shape of his early life. And, and that book ends with his conversion of Christ. Yeah.

So how did you take this and decide that you wanted to do a one man play? I mean, because that's, that's a, that's a huge undertaking. And that's a lot of lines to memorize. And I'm not an actor. So I look at, I look at somebody like you that can memorize all this. I mean, because there's a lot of quotes. It's not just, it's not just scripting, it's real things that he actually said. So you have to remember it a certain way. How difficult was that for you? Well, that was

the that was the objective to do that very thing to to attempt to create the character of CS Lewis, from his own words, so that an audience member would would have an opportunity to, to really hear from him to know what it was like to be in the room with him to think his thoughts after him. So my work was to do the heavy lifting of all that memory work, all that putting together the script, so that the audience could get an experience of CS Lewis. And that's what we attempted to do with this film.

Very cool. Before we start talking about the film, I want to talk about your personal connection with CS Lewis. What was your first book that you read of his or what was your How did you first come to know him? Yeah,

yeah, it was early in my Christian walk. I was an adult convert in my 20s. The book the first book that really captured my attention was The Screwtape Letters. And the very first scene of The Screwtape Letters you might remember it's about Screwtape is recounting his successes. And he mentions a man reading in the British Museum. Do you remember that scene. And he obviously is reading something that's really captured his imagination. And Screwtape says he sees 20 years work beginning to fall apart. And he whispers in his ear, isn't it just about time for lunch. And he distracts him from what he was doing. And when he ends that he says, you know, he got the man back on track for him to bring him to our father below safely. He's safely with our father below. And he says, the end of that. It's funny how these humans picture us as putting things into their minds. Our best work is done by keeping things out. And I said, Okay, this man is someone to be reckoned with. Yeah,

definitely. I'm glad that that passage really put a hook in you, because that has led you to do a lot of his works on the stage.

Well, you know, if you're faithful to Christ here, you're going to try to figure out a way to integrate your faith with your work. And, and that's what what I was trying to do with with Lewis Lewis, helps me to understand my faith better is through presenting, Louis, that I feel that I am communicating Christ more clearly, more vividly, more provocatively, more profoundly.

Yeah. And I definitely agree with that. Because every time I hear Lewis, his work, it it causes me to think and to really process who God is even more. Yeah, exactly. So Max, I want to talk about this film, the most reluctant convert, how did it go from being a play script to being a screenplay to being up on the on the silver screen? Yeah,

yeah. Well, you know, a play script is pretty simple. In the sense of, you have, you have one set, you have costume, you have lighting, you have a set. In our case, we had projection designs, we had a really good soundscape. And it's one person on stage. When I asked Norman to make it a film, it went from one person on stage on one set to 18 different locations in and around Oxford, 15 actors 190 extras 270 costumes, it became quite an event. And of course, that's what film does, it opens it up in terms of making a film, as opposed to making a play, you know, play, you rehearse for a month or so. And you do it in sequence from beginning to end. Right and film this hardly any rehearsal in the same way, you know, you you break it up into tiny little pieces. And you try to figure out the continuity between piece by piece because they're not done in order. And then you leave it up to at least in my case, I left it up to the director and, and the editors to piece all those things together. Yeah. And that's what happened with our movie.

That's really cool. You guys filmed this, during the pandemic, the height of the pandemic. And so you were really some of the only people that were doing this type of work. Yeah.

Norman said that he he gave us notice that filmmaking was going to be ready to go at a particular time in England. And I said, Okay, let's let's be prepared when it opens. And he was able to get a crew and a cast. That was first rate. Nobody had worked since March. We started in August, finished in October. And as soon as we finished, they shut down the country again. Oh, wow. So it was a real small window, about a six week window, where filmmaking could actually be made, and very few films were made. But ours was and you know, we we greenlit the film in the summer of 20. We shot in the fall of 20. Did all post production in the winter 21. And then we made plans to release it, and it did release in November 2021.

Yeah. And I really enjoyed the film and I love that you got to play two parts. Basically, you played yourself and also yourself as CS Lewis, kind of as a very, a way to bring the audience into the play into the movie that I hadn't seen before. And it really it shook me but that It brought me right in. I really thought that was a cool way to a cool method to start the film and then also end it.

Well, that was that was Norman's vision from beginning to end, because his objective was, he wanted to stay as close to the stage play while making a movie. And so he he had this device of, of the actor preparing. Yeah. And then getting into it, talking directly to the camera. And, you know, it was I trusted normal that it would work. But I'd never done that before either.

Yeah, and I believe that it definitely did work. It worked for me and it, it shook me, then it pulled me right in and it prepared me to think this is something that it's different. And it's very unique. You know, Max, you guys did these on location? Where not just on any location on the locations, the actual historical locations, where CS studied where he lived? Yes. What was that like for you of being somebody that has been influenced by CS Lewis so much? What was it like to be in the same places? Well, it

was amazing. You know, being at modeline College, we were spent three days in modeling College, the library, his rooms, not exactly his rooms were very approximate his rooms because his rooms have become sort of a chemistry lab, the Addison's walk, we weren't able to get into the eagle and child the burden, baby, but we had a pup very similar, the white horse in not too far away. But it still gave that that sense of, of being in a small smoky English pub. We were in the kilns, you know, at different locations in around Oxford. I think the film in many ways is is like an advertisement for Oxford. It's just Oh, yeah, it really makes people want to go there.

Definitely. I mean, I, I loved it. I mean, the cinematography was was really impressive. And it just kind of it brought you into those locations. And I felt like I was there, which is what you want to do in a movie? Yes. So the movie came out in November, December of 2021. Yeah. And what was the response that you've seen?

Well, we're way beyond what we thought. I mean, it was on the day it opened, it was a number two film in America, it did better than bond. And it was second only to dune. And the primary reason for that is we were in 450 screens, and they were in 3000 screens. But our per screen average was way higher. So the movie theaters really took notice. And they said, You know what, we want to keep this movie. So it was supposed to be one night only, and it ran for a month. And then more recently, it was it's been as high as number four on Apple TV for independent films, number 12. And for DVD releases, and on Amazon. So it's really making an impact. And I'm grateful it's found its audience.

That's great. That is really, really cool. And, you know, since we're talking about that, right now, I just want to let people know that if you go to CS Lewis movie.com, you can get all the information on how to get the how to get the streaming version of it or to buy it digitally. However you want to get it, you can get that information there. So CS Lewis movie.com. Max, for you. I mean, you've done many things about CS Lewis, in your life. Is there another movie about CS Lewis that's coming? What else is going on with you?

Yeah, the first thing is I I've created another stage play the film, and that's the original stage by the most reluctant convert ends at his conversion of Christ. It wasn't obvious in 1931, when he converted that he would become the most influential Christian writer of the 20th century and beyond. How did that take place? What you know, happened in his character that the Lord just opened the floodgates, you know, gave him a national platform and the BBC. How did listening to Hitler's Reichstag speech in 1940, influenced his writing of Screwtape? How did he become such an effective evangelist, especially the skeptics, and his maturity of thought, you know, what he thought about prayer, how powerful prayer was in his life? I'm very curious. It's called further up further in because most of us go to Louis, because we expect to be risen to expect to come to a higher place. has to have some kind of connection with the universe next door to something outside of ourselves. And so this play helps us offer that to, to our audiences. I'm looking forward. It was, we developed it, we spent about a year on it developed it had a workshop in in Houston, previewed it in Phoenix. And the response was amazing. It was really an overwhelming response, probably greater than anything I've done. And I'm just really we're gonna roll it out nationally, this fall.

Okay, so this is a this is another one man play. Right, right.

In terms of films, Norman and I have made an agreement to do two new films together. We anticipate beginning actually doing the budgeting and the end the treatment now writing the scripts over the next six, eight months, and hopefully get into production mid next year.

Oh, cool. Well, I'm looking forward to all these things that you just talked about, what is the website that that people can follow?

Yeah, it's the work that we do is, you'll be able to follow at CS Lewis movie.com, CS Lewis movie.com.

And what about the, if somebody has the opportunity to see you on the stage,

oh, that you can go to CS Lewis on stage.com. CS Lewis on stage.com. And that'll, that's pretty easy to remember that the the further up further in play.

That's wonderful. So CS, Lewis, movie.com, and CS Lewis on stage.com. Get you all the information that you need to see these amazing works, whether it be on this screen, or in person. And Max, I just want to thank you so much for taking some time to talk about CS Lewis and how he's impacted your life. And now, because he's impacted your life so much. He's now impacting so many other people through through the work that you're doing. And so thank you so much for using the arts for the kingdom of God the way that you are. Thank you. You've been listening to the charisma news podcast. I'm John Matarazzo. God bless you. Thank you for listening to this episode of along the way. If you've enjoyed joining me along my way, please share this with a friend who you think will be encouraged by this podcast. Also, please rate and review along the way on iTunes that helps more people discover along the way. And please subscribe to this podcast wherever you're listening. You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram and through my website along the way dot media. On my website, you can sign up to receive newsletter updates whenever I put out a new episode, so you don't miss one. If you want to help support me in this podcast, I have a Patreon page. The link to become a supporter is also in my show notes. I hope that you've enjoyed this part of my journey and may you realize when Jesus is walking with you along your way. Along the way is honored to be part of the charisma Podcast Network. You can find tons of spirit filled content from our vast catalogue of podcast including my Monday through Friday news stories for the charisma news podcast. Go to CPN shows.com To see the full list and latest episodes