The Woman who Invented Christmas - Donna VanLiere’s Journey AlongTheWay 22

It was raining real hard the day we buried my daddy. And I thought that would make a good line. A good first line for a book. And, you know, but again, I didn't think too much about it. And after college I was if someone needed something done, they say, Wow, we need the sketch written. Do you know who could write it? And I'd say, Oh, yeah, sure, I can do that for you. Or if someone said, Well, we need this play written, or this musical written for this charity event. Do you know somebody? I was like, Oh, yeah, I'll do that for you. Never thinking about it. Like, oh, I'm, I might be kind of good with words. I don't know. But that's exactly what was happening. I didn't know it. I didn't see it. But, but God was preparing me all along the way.

Welcome to along the way. I'm John matter. So your host and fellow traveler. Thank you for joining me along my way is I try to become more like Jesus every day. I love talking with fascinating people, people and learning how God has met them along their way. Everyone has a story, and I believe that we can all learn from each other's journeys. Through this episode, I want to encourage you to look for the story and others. God has placed hidden gems of wisdom and others, and the Holy Spirit will reveal life changing truths through our conversations. In this episode of along the way, my journey connects me with best selling author Donna van leer, Donna has written several Christmas books that have turned into TV movies on CBS and the Hallmark Channel. I have gotten to know Donna through her many visits to Cornerstone network on my TV program real life. But there is much more to Donna than Christmas stories. I'm so glad that I was able to spend some time with her when I was in Nashville and I was able to learn from her along the way journey. I'll get to the interview in just a moment. But I want to let you know that you can hear all my episodes, even the ones that you've missed by visiting my website along the way dot media, or subscribing wherever you get your podcast. I'm also on Facebook and Instagram. And you can keep in touch by emailing me at John along the way at gmail. com. My social links and web address are in the show notes. I'd love to hear from you. And now here's my along the way conversation with the woman who invented Christmas. Donna, then later.

Well, Donovan Lior, thank you so much for being on along the way and letting me come to your home just outside of Nashville. And Franklin, it's been a pleasure to have you on real life several times.

I know. I know. It's always so much fun to go up there. But every time you had me there, it's like 20. See?

Well, there's there's a reason that you're there that time of year. It's because of the books that you write, or most of the books that you write, right Christmas Story related, right?

Exactly. Well, one year when was it was about four years ago, I guess. When I got to the studio, it was just lightly snowing, you know, it's just kind of lightly falling down. But when I got out the driveway was covered. I mean, it was several inches thick. And your listeners would not know this. But where your studio is, is high on a hill. Yes, it is a very steep

hill.

And it took the driver. Oh my word. It took him so long to get down there. And there was already one woman who was like swerving off to the side. Oh, yeah. And from behind the will behind the wheel. He was willing her you know, just to keep it in in the lane and not to go off the side. But it took him several minutes to get down that hill. But that was crazy. how fast the snow falling? Yeah, it's nuts.

Yeah, it's it's beautiful. But it can be treacherous.

Right. And those are the days that you guys have me on? Yeah.

Well, the next time we have you it's going to be for a different type of book. We'll talk about that a little bit. But yeah, we're one of our favorite people that we have come on a regular basis. You're very

kind. I'm not just saying that you're always a pleasure to have.

It's because I gave you a homemade cookies

are very good, by the way. Very good. So you've written several books. Actually, Could you just tell us how many books that you have written?

Oh, John, I don't know. It's 13 or 14? Or something like that? Yeah, I don't I don't go through and count them. To keep up with them. I don't.

Yeah. are several of the books that you've written have been turned into different movies? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So what are some of those that people might recognize

the Christmas shoes was the first one to be turned into a movie for CBS. And that was followed by the Christmas blessing and the Christmas hope. And then we were told that network TV was getting out of the movie business. It was cheaper to do reality shows. Yeah, we were told. And so the producers then started pitching the books to Hallmark. So three of them had been picked up by homework.

That's incredible. Like this something that you've created, that God put in your mind. You put in you put on paper, and then somebody turns in, you know, you can enjoy it in the book form. But then somebody else says, I'm going to turn this into TV, right?

Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's It's exciting. But it's also kind of, you know, I kind of like turned my head sometimes when I look at the script and go, I wonder if they read the book. turn this into a script. Oh, goodness.

But I creative licensing.

Yeah, very creative sometimes. But yes, they they've, you know, usually have maintained the theme of the book. And I've always said that by the time a reader gets to the last page of the book, I want them to know the hope is alive. So if a viewer can come away with that same thought those same feelings from watching the movie, well, I hope that they've they've gotten close to the mark. I

never exactly like the book.

Yeah. So what inspired you to write a Christmas book?

The first one was inspired by our friends and new song. Okay. We were it was in July, well, several years ago, and we were at one of their concerts in Knoxville. And it was a very hot, sweltering day like it is right now. It's just one of those strangely hot days, like we've had for the last couple of days here. And our friend Eddie cars. Well, he said, Hey, Donna, I'm thinking about writing a song. He gave me a quick two sentence premise of it. And he said, Do you think that make a good Christmas song? And I said, Well, you know, I actually think that would make a good book. And so just kind of tongue in cheek. He said, Well, you're the one with the computer get to writing it, you know, you just kind of teasing me. But it really did trigger something in me. And on our drive home from Knoxville, back to Nashville. I could I could really see that story coming out in my head. So I did get busy writing it. And which which book was that? That was the Christmas shoes. That was the that was your first that was the first novel?

Yeah, okay, Christmas, you've written other things. Before that I had

written. I had written a gift book about friendships about true life friendships, where I interview people, so that one, and then I had written another book based on the lives of the apostles. It's kind of like a devotional type book. So I had written those two. So this one was a little different. But in the same sense, it was. The Apostle book was a book of scenes book of stories. Really? Sure. And so this was a novel, which is one big story. Yeah. So they kind of followed followed each other. Well,

yeah. So tell me what, what it felt like to have such popularity for that first novel?

Well, it was overwhelming. It was humbling. It was fun. You know, there was a lot of good adjectives associated with that book. So yeah, I mean, it was great fun. It was, it was a lot of fun for new song because they had gone number one on the Billboard charts with their song, the Christmas shoes. So there was a lot of fun things that happen, but you know, life rolls along, and other things come along and happened as well. So yeah, you don't ride that, that those coattails for too long.

Yeah. So you keep moving. You keep writing.

Yeah, absolutely. You keep moving on to different things. It was so funny, because in one interview, John, someone said, Do you remember what color the shoes were in the book? And I was like, No, you know, I don't, because by then I was already, you know, for books after ad or something. But it's funny that when people read that book, whatever they're reading, they think that the author remembers every character, every scene, every nuance about it. And

it's like, whenever somebody asked me who's your favorite guests that you found on real life, and I'm like, I've done it over 1000 episodes. Now. I've met so many people. Yeah, it really depends on the context like, Okay, I've got so if it's music people or authors, yeah, exactly. That influenced my life on the set or off this? Yeah, exactly. ships. I'm like, right. How do I even answer that question? Right. Yeah, it really depends on context. Yeah.

It's hard. It's hard. People do ask, they say, what's your favorite book? And, and many times authors say it is the one they're working on. And there's a reason because they have a hard time remembering.

Prior to that,

right, and you're living in that space right there. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So Donna, do Have you always wanted to be an author? Is that something that that has carried with you your entire life? And

no, it's one of those things, John, where, you know, I'd heard one time, a lot of times people don't know what they're gifted at, because it comes naturally to them. A lot of times, it takes someone to point out what you're gifted at, okay, what you're really good at, you know, someone could have said to you, john, you have a, you have a really nice voice, you could do, you could do radio, or you could do voiceovers, something like that. And you think, wow, I never thought about before, you know, but a lot of times someone else can point out your gift to you, before you even realize what it is. And so all through high school I've been, I've been writing I was on the school newspaper, all through college. I was writing and never thought anything about it. But it was in college, when I had an idea for a first line of a book. And I thought, wow, one day I think I'd like to write a book. But it was nothing more than that, that I had got this first line. It was raining real hard the day we buried my daddy. And I thought that would make a good line. A good first line for a book. Yeah. And you know, but again, I didn't think too much about it. And after college I was if someone needed something done, they say, Wow, we need the sketch written written. Do you know who could write it? And I tell Yeah, sure, I can do that for you. Or because I was a theater major in college. So I did see Deauville University in Ohio. And I was theater and broadcasting. So if someone needed a sketch, I would just yeah, I'll do it for you. Or if someone say, well, we need this play written or this musical written for this charity event? Do you know somebody? I was like, yeah, I'll do that for you. You know, again, never thinking about it. Like, oh, I'm, I might be kind of good with words. I don't know. But that's exactly what was happening. I didn't know it. I didn't see it. But But God was preparing me all along the way. Yeah, you know, he was preparing me with all these little things that I would be writing. So you know, yeah, I'll do it. I'll do that for you. Sure, I'll do it. And one time, I took a technical writing job, which was really horrible. Because I have no technical mind at all, you can ask my kids the hand or stand the phone understand electronics much better than I do. And it was technical writing about how a computer particular computer program work. And it was so bad. I went to my husband, I said, I don't even know how to write this. I don't know how to do this. Because my brain thinks in stories,

stories, right? Right. It uses adjectives and things like that.

So my husband ended up doing it for me. And the whole time, he said, Why did you take this job in the world? Did you take this job? So again, it's just one more thing where God shows you that you're no good at this, right? You can't do this. But I do know a lady. She loves technical writing, and she thrives in technical writing, but she would not be able to do what I do. And that's just that's just the beauty of it. You learn as you go along.

Yeah, I have a friend a mentor of mine, Dave bearing, he said, when you're in your 20s, you kind of have this this wide range of view where you can say all this stuff is in front of me and I can do all this stuff. Right? As you get older and you go through a lot more life experience, you get more focused, and you realize what you what you still can do, but what you what you're not good at, right, and kind of getting that laser laser focus. And it really helped me kind of not be so anxious in my 20s. Like, okay, I Why am I not finding my purpose directly? And it's because I'm in that weeding out process? Right. And so you weeded out pretty quickly that you're not a technical. Right? Yeah,

yes, that was obvious.

So how did you start writing things that you enjoyed? I mean, obviously, the the Christmas shoes was that that was the first novel, but you probably did some form of creative writing before that, though, too. Right? I

did. Yes, I was, you know, at the time, back in the 90s. You know, there was a lot of churches who were doing that we're doing dramas, sketches, or something. And I was the one writing all of those, okay, and performing in them with with other people. And so it just struck me, I was like, hey, all I'm doing is I'm writing scenes every single week. So I can I that's basically what a novel is a novel is different scenes. So I ended up just taking it from there like, yeah, you can do this. Yeah, you can you can write a novel because by that time, I'd written the, the two other books. So when Eddie gave me that idea, and I mean, it just sparked something. I was just seeing scene after scene after scene in my head. So I just said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try it. Yeah, if it doesn't work, it does. All right.

Did you always grow up in a Christian family? How did you come to faith in Christ?

I did. I grew up in a Christian home. And it was at the time where you went to church twice on Sunday, and you went on Wednesday, as well. Boy, they've gotten rid of that schedule over the last several decades, haven't they? Because that doesn't happen anymore. But yes, I grew up in a Christian home, and I was in a Sunday school class and her teacher made the salvation message very simple. For me, and I was six. And I thought, well, that's what I want. That's what I want to do. And I did, right there in that little

six year old.

Yeah. Right. Right there in that little class. Yep. It's beautiful.

It's a, you know, someone kids go off to Sunday School, a church is not just to entertain them. Right, exactly. There's a purpose for that. Right. You're living proof of that. And so am I.

Yes. Right. But like I said, the salvation message was presented. And it was clear to me and I understood it. And I understood that that's what I wanted to do. That's awesome.

Yeah. Do you remember the first time that you realize that God was speaking to you?

Boy, I heard as a child,

no, of course, looking back on it, you know, that it was it was then in that class? Because Scripture tells us the, the, you know, the father calls us, right, you know, the spirit loses father calls us and tells the son who belongs to him. So of course, it would have been in that class when, when I was hearing him, but not really knowing that right? Like, Hey, come on. I'm calling you to be to be one of mine, as he you know, does not want anyone to perish, but everyone to come to salvation. But I looking back on it now, I would say yes, that's when I was hearing him and probably, you know, even even sitting in those Sunday night services with my parents and listening to, to the preacher at that time. That's what we call them preachers. And realizing that, hey, that that word is actually making sense to me. You know, I'm, that's kind of resonating with me. But I never really thought about that question before. JOHN, when's the first time you heard God speaking to you? But looking back on it now, obviously, that it was then

yeah. Yeah, those are, those are precious moments. Because, like, the whole theme of this podcast is those times where Jesus is walking with us that we don't realize in the moment that we can look back and say, Wow, he was right there this whole time, kind of like that. That old poem of the footprints in the sand, you're right, you know, I don't want to miss in my life. I don't want to miss those moments where Jesus is walking with me, but I'm too busy with all the things of this world, all these distractions to realize that he's right here with me, right. And so part of that thing is, and we were talking about it just a little bit ago is finding our purpose. What are some of the practical steps that you took to really lock in your purpose?

Wow, what are some steps I took to walk in my purpose? Well, I actually need to go back. Okay. Okay. Because this is really how I came to walk in my purpose. When, before I even enter kindergarten, we had neighbors, and we would have to cross this field to get to our neighbor's house, and they had a child my same age as me. And we played together every single day. Because it was long days of summer, long days during the year, because you're not in kindergarten, what part of the country is this? It's an Ohio. Okay. Yeah. So I across that field every day, and I play with them. And he had, there was a whole mess of kids in that house. And he was the youngest. And so we had a lot of older, older siblings. And one day, I was over there, and he and I were playing hide and go seek. So I ran upstairs to I ran into some bedroom to hide. And he didn't find me. But his older brother did. Okay. And I don't remember crossing the field to get back home. I obviously got back home. But crossing that field and getting back to my home, I knew that I could never tell anyone about what happened in that room. And so I didn't, and I kept it to myself for decades, didn't talk about it. didn't let anybody know about it. And it was while I was married at the time, and I was driving to see my husband in downtown Nashville, and I took a wrong turn. And I ended up at a outside of the school building. And there were children out on the playground. And there was this little girl, she lived to be about five or six about the age that I was at that time. And she started jumping up and down for no reason. She was dressed, I had to tell pink shoes was so cute. And she was jumping, jumping up and jumping. And there was nothing to jump over. She wasn't on a pogo stick, you know, there was just all this joy in her she's jumping. And her joy was so contagious that another little girl came alongside of her and started hopping with her. And the light turned green. And I pulled away from that school building. And I thought what if that sweet hopping little girl went home and went over to the neighbor's house? And what if an older brother in the house would have the father sexually abused her? How could that sweet hopping? innocent little girl ever blame herself. But that's what I had done. For decades. I blamed myself. And it was then driving down Western Avenue in Nashville, that I finally heard God's words to me that I was innocent. And there was no blame. And I do believe he had been, obviously speaking those words to me over and over for decades. But I never heard him until then. And so it was when I was in that car, and driving away from that school building that I spoke out loud, to my molester. And I said, I forgive you not because you've asked me to not because you would even want it. But because I don't want to be in bondage to you any longer. And I just released it, then there after decades. Wow. Yeah, I was having this. So that began my purpose. At that point, that's when I really felt.

I don't know if you'd call it calling for writing. But that's when I really knew that there was something more than just get up and go to my job, and then come home again. Get up go to my job come home again, over and over and over again. You know, yeah, you know, which is what I was doing at that time. So wasn't an audible voice. No, it was just a feeling that I had, it was a sense of perception that I had that because I had finally released all of that, that God was able to fulfill his plan A for me. I know some people think, oh, God has a plan B. I don't believe that at all. God has a plan A for everybody's life. And we get directed from choices that we make, or that life as sales against us. And we think, well, God's got to move into Plan B. No, God still has his plan A Yeah. And it will happen. So it was really at that moment that I really felt that I was coming into that purpose, if that makes sense.

That's, that's a powerful story. Donna, thank you for thank you for sharing that. That's that's very personal. Just about that innocence that God spoke to you. Right? You are so

right. Absolutely. And for, and I do I, I talk to women, actually, some men along the way, as well, who you carry it, you carry the weight of that you carry the shame, you carry the guilt that doesn't even belong to you. It that wasn't mine to carry. You know, I spoke with a young man, it was just probably a year ago when he was in torment. And course, it wasn't his fault at all, to be carrying such shame. But it's amazing our capacity to carry these things for decades. Right?

Yeah. So how do you help somebody go through that?

Well, I you know, I'm always the first to say I'm not a therapist, I'm not a counselor, sure at all, I can just share with them my story, right. And I can pray. Okay, I can pray for them right there, you know, on the spot, and to let them know that it's not their fault at all. It is a it's a terrible thing to carry. And to think that you can walk around in life with so many walls built up around you. But that's what abuse does. normalization does, it's what fear does, you end up building a lot of walls, and just trying to bring them down. They don't come down at once. But to be able to bring part of it down. Yeah,

sure. So how have you changed because of God speaking that you're innocent to you?

Well, I think like we were just speaking about is that I finally realized I was made for something more, more than just, you know, getting up and go into a job that I did, you know, it was okay. You know, I didn't, I didn't like it too much. It was okay. But knowing that I mean, God doesn't want us to be in a job, that's just okay. He wants us to be in a job where we are fulfilled. And if that means you're a cashier, or you're a bank teller, you know what, wherever you are, that you're there, because you love it, you love the people, you love the people that you meet, and you feel like you have a purpose and being there. And you have something to say to those people who come through your line of even just yeah, smiling or, or offering them, you know, a good word for their day. That's awesome. And so I really feel that that's when God was God was saying, All right, I'm going to start moving you in this direction. Yeah.

Donna, if you could go back in time, to any period of your life. And give yourself some advice, where what situation would be going on in your life? And what would you say?

Well, it would have been, if I'd been able to understand that it would have been when I cross the field. Sure, you know, from that home, if I could have been able to understand those words, as a six year old, which really, I don't know if I would have been able to. So maybe when I was in high school, maybe had my maybe might have been able to understand them a little better about my innocence and about how that doesn't define you. What has in that room doesn't define you. It's not who you are. It's not how you have to live for the rest of your life. Buried in that buried in that shame. That guilt. Buried in that sphere, really? So? Yeah, like I probably don't I don't think I would have been able to understand that at six. But maybe, yeah, maybe when I was older, maybe known as I was in high school. Yeah, I could have sat myself down.

Do you? Do you think that teenage version of yourself would would listen to your advice?

I think so. Yeah, I was pretty. I was pretty quiet. Pretty pensive. I really did. Listen to people. Well, yeah, I think I would have. Yeah, absolutely. I'm still a good listener. Well, that's good. So I think I would have been able to Yeah,

yeah. So I think you kind of we've already talked about how Jesus was walking with you along the way. But you kind of didn't realize it, you look back on a few different times. And so I want to talk about what God's doing with you now. What is God teaching you now in your life,

and this season? Well, he has really, for the last several years, been speaking to me, primarily when I would be sitting in church. And I really don't want this to come across the wrong way to come across snarky or snappy in any way. But I would be sitting in church, and I would be thinking, I've heard this message before. I've heard this one before, to, you know, that sort of thing. I know the feeling exactly right. I mean, when you've been in church all your life, right? You know, from time you're in your mother's arms, you you can you can remember back, I remember this when it was on the felt board, that little felt characters. So I, but there was a there was a message that was missing, because when I was a little girl, our pastor or visiting pastor would say things like, Jesus is coming back. Jesus is returning. And the you know, they would just kind of say those things in the middle of their messages. And then one day was several years ago, I was sitting in church, and I thought, wow, you know, a message that you don't hear anymore, is the return of Jesus, that Jesus is coming back, which is strange to me, because there's a lot more prophecies about the return of Jesus, then there are about His first coming about his birth. There's more prophecies about his second coming. I thought, well, how interesting that we don't hear about this in church. So I just started studying it several years ago. And then once I read Revelation, I was like, wow, I need to read that again. You know, and I'd read it again, I'd read through Daniel again. And I just kept slipping through the Bible, of all these prophecies that are laid out for us. And a lot of times we think that prophecy is a scary word. It just means going to unfold, prophecy unfolds. A lot of people think that Oh, prophecy, you know, God says something that happens right away. But that's not how prophecy works.

So we want it to work.

Right here. Definitely. Right. But so I just went through and I just began studying and devouring scripture about that, just because it was missing in my church experience. So you know, several years in, I just felt as if God deposited the idea in my heart to write a book about it. And so I did that. A few years ago, I wrote a book that is about three quarters novel. Okay. And then the last one quarter rabbit is biblical teaching about what the reader just read.

Okay. So take me a little bit through this novel, because we're talking about an End Times novel, and this is probably a little bit different than, like left behind or something like that. I'm assuming?

Oh, yes. Right. Well, I actually never read those books. Okay. I can't speak on those. But yes, it is a it's a book that begins just prior to Jesus snatching away, those who are in him, those who are in Christ. So it is just prior to that. And then, you know, just a few pages in that happens and and what happens to the world? And what happens to these main characters, as they begin to figure out what happened and how they end up going back into scripture. And it's also the ceiling of the 144,000. Okay, which are 144,000, from the 12 tribes of Israel. Yeah. So I have a couple of characters like that, okay, that shows them in their everyday life, and then being called as these servants at that time. And what's interesting about revelation, John is many churches make people believe that it's allegory. And we're told six times it's prophecy. Yeah, it's prophecy six times. And Jesus himself says, Don't add anything to these words, don't take anything away from him. He says, Don't do that. That's not good. So it's, it's so interesting that we're told six times, yeah, it's prophecy, because they, you know, the Lord wants us to know that as prophecy, prophecy unfolds, it will unfold according to his time. not ours. A lot of people look, look at it, and they go, Oh, this is never going to happen. It's been 2000 years since his birth, this is never going to happen. It's according to God's time. Right? not ours.

And so I mean, we've had, we've had the, the Mayan calendar, and people like Doomsday Sayers for that we've had people, you know, claiming different days and things like that. We know that no man knows the time or the hour. But we know that the seasons, we know, the signs, right. So what are some of the things that stand out for you? What are the things that you're looking for,

I would say, for me is if you read through Matthew 24, you can see just a convergence of signs that are happening now. Because when the apostles asked Jesus, what is the sign of your visa, one more, all these things happen, because Jesus has set had said, not one stone will be left standing of the temple. And if Jesus is telling the apostles that the temple is coming down, because the temple was enormous, yeah, it was huge. So for that thing to come down, it had to be the end, right? To be the end. I mean, what could bring that temple down? So the apostles asked him, Well, when will this happen? What will the sign be of your coming and of the end of the age? So basically, they're kind of asking them three, three questions. You know, it must all be happening at once we're here the three questions for this. And the first words out of Jesus's mouth where Watch out that no one deceive you. And right now, if we read the headlines, sure, yeah. I mean, we've just seen three Christian leaders who've come out and who said that they no longer believe that they've turned their back on the faith.

Right. And that's just three. Since May. I know I've talked about Joshua Harris and Marty Samson. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, there's there's more.

Right, right. And the pastor and in Missouri, okay, who just came out in May saying, that's it. They no longer believe. So deception, we see deception, creeping in why I shouldn't say it's creeping in because humanism has been on the rise since the early 1900s. Yeah. In our country, were infiltrated the schools infiltrated the church. Now we're in this postmodern age where it's all about my truth. Don't that's scary? Yeah. What I feel, and it's, um, again, all of that sprung, sprung off of humanism. And in many churches today, you will hear people say, Well, I don't feel that way. I don't, I don't feel God means that when he says this, well, God means what he says, right? in Scripture. He doesn't ask what we think, done. That's what we believe he doesn't ask our opinion. Sure, doesn't ask how we feel about it. But those are his words. So when you look back at Matthew 24, you can see this convergence of signs that are happening at once. We're told that earthquakes, famines, pestilence, you know, all of that is just the beginning. birth pains. And if you have the beginning of birth pains, something is going to be birth, right. Yeah. If you get birth pains are happening, right, something's going to be birth. And those are just the beginning of the signs. But now we see deception creeping in. We see what you know, the week, Paul talks about perilous times, just today, I was in the grocery store. And the headline on the newspaper said, facing our fears, the huge headline, and it was about the political candidates, and all the fears that are ahead of them. And I thought, well, that is so strange, because we're told to fear the Lord. You know, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and that we don't fear the LORD, in our country, the way that we did at one time, we don't have the reverence, we don't have the all for him, that we did. But we're placing all of our fears and global warming, we're placing our fears in the economy. And we're looking to all the wrong things. When we should our all, and our reverence should be in the Lord, which is the fear of the Lord. I was explaining this to my son, you know, just a few weeks ago, it's not that we're afraid. It's the fear of the Lord is just reverence and all of His Holiness, yes,

power were created to worship something that were created to worship God. And if our focus isn't on worshiping God, then we're going to you know, worshiping God, part of that is having the fear of the holy wherever the Lord, if we start putting our fear into other things, then that is becoming our God.

Yes, exactly. And we end up worshipping ourselves, which is where many people are today. Right? Yeah. But again, to bring it all back around again, it is the convergence of everything that's happening at once. Because even Jesus Himself said, when you see all these things begin to happen, look up, because your redemption is near. And from the headlines that we read, we can certainly see that things are looking up. Things are looking up. And Jesus is saying, Yeah, it's closer, closer now than it was yesterday. Yeah.

So can you talk a little bit about your books that you've written about the end times? Yes. It's definitely a departure from your Christmas.

It is it's a departure. Yeah, absolutely. With the exception of it's still a novel, okay, still a story, because I did want to present it as a story for people. But the first one is called the time of Jacob's trouble. It will be coming out in March, with harvest house publishers. And I'm just really excited about it. I love the cover that they came up with. But I just really hope and pray that it will be a tool for people to dig into the word Yeah, to really study it for themselves. And I even wrote in the back of it. I said, Don't take my word for it. Do not take my word for it. study it yourself. There's so many theories out there, John, you know that, you know, there's post Millennium there's prima there's all millennial, millennial ism, will study them and see what you believe. Many people fight and bicker over it. But it's not a salvation issue. It's not. I mean, for me, I know what I believe, again from studying the Scripture. And so I just wanted to to write about that let people know, because I know, it had been decades for me since I'd been sitting in church. And I'd heard those messages. I know that the millennials and Generation Z, many of them have never heard it. Yeah, they've never heard the scriptures that Jesus is coming back. And they've probably never cracked open revelation. Because for a lot of people, they think it's scary. Right? Or it's allegory now why God chose to put one allegorical book, within the whole canon of Scripture is beyond me. But again, as prophecy. Six times is prophecy, so and it's so interesting, because revelation is the only book in the entire Bible, that promises is a blessing. And it's a trifle blessing. Yeah, we're told three times, you are blessed. If you hear the hear the words, if you read them aloud,

which is very specific, you can hear yourself saying,

right, and as you read it to other people, and if you take the words to heart, it's a trifle blessing. So God didn't put that in there to scare us. But to bless us. I mean, nowhere in the book does He say be afraid, be very, very afraid, what you're about to read. Yeah,

I mean, anytime that God speaks about things in the Bible, he off that or there's a big angelic being. It says, fear not right, that God doesn't want us to fear anything, but have that holy reverence for you. Right,

exactly. And you nailed that right on the head holy reverence, because even in Revelation, where they described the throne, and the angels around the throne, saying, holy, holy, holy, is he you know, the elders are there and just describing the throne? And we've lost that. Yeah. Some many times, and even our own personal worship and our own personal time with the Lord. We've lost the reverence for his holiness.

Yeah, we definitely have. Yeah. How do we get that back?

I think it has to start individually. Okay. You know, you just can't count on that happening in a corporate service where there's, you know, a lot of loud music, perhaps, you know, it's just as it's hard. It's hard to do that. But in your own personal time, you can just think upon His Holiness. Yeah.

So you're saying it happens, not just on Sunday, it happens throughout the week, right? We need to live our faith throughout the week, not just show up on Sunday and say, I did what I did what I'm supposed to do,

right? Right. You have to you've got to have that. That personal time with the Lord, because your pastor may read only 10 verses? Well, let's say he reads 30 verses of scripture. That would be generous, phenomenal. Phenomenal. There still over 31,000 verses to read in Scripture. Yeah. So you have to open your Bible, and you have to study it, because so often the Bible is read in snippets, you know, think of Facebook post or a Twitter,

that that's a whole different topic. And that gets dangerous. Yeah.

I mean, it's read in snippets. It's read in little tiny bites of self help stuff, right. You know, as opposed to really sitting down and really reading through

Scripture. This year. I've been doing the Bible in one year on the app, right. And I try to do a new a different translation whenever I read the Bible through, you know, the next time so I'm good at doing the New Living Translation right now. But I'm doing the audio with it. So I'm listening to the audio while I'm reading along. Yeah, there's things that I know I've read, maybe a dozen times right there just like popping out to me and I know are coming more alive than I ever thought they would raise. I've missed them. Oh, my gosh, that makes so much.

Well, that's interesting that you said that, because I'm doing the same thing, John, I'm listening to it. Really? Yes. When I take my long walks, I take my son to football practice. And while he's practicing, I'm walking the track. And I'm just listening to the word because it not too long ago, the verse Faith comes by hearing really struck me and it just popped out to me. And not just hearing but hearing the Word of God. Right. Right. Right. Right. And, and I thought, well, I need to do that more often. I need to do that. So I yeah, I started it several weeks ago, just you know, popping in the ear pods and, and walking around and listening and what you just said the exact same thing. Like, I know, I've read that many times in my life. Yeah. But Wow, that sounds so different, you know?

Yeah. Some of the Old Testament characters where it's like these lists of names, like, Oh, I see the connections. No, I never cared about that before. No, right. God intentionally put so much more revelation in the Bible, then we can comprehend through just a brief reading. Yeah. And especially if we're not reading in context, right?

Yes, absolutely. So I encourage anybody, you're out walking. Yeah. Listen, listen to the word. Because if I'm, if I'm cooking, or something, I get distracted by reading the recipe or whatever, you know, so it takes me out of it. But if I'm just walking around, I'm unable to concentrate and hear the word.

So after you finish listening to this podcast, then you can go over there you go. So Donna, one thing I like to ask people is, do you have a life verse that just resonates with you,

deletions, 115 really resonates with me, and I'm not sure which particular version This is, but it is. But God had special plans for me before I was born. He called me by His grace.

And it's beautiful.

Right? Yeah. And we actually named our first daughter grace. Yeah. Which means God's grace. So that one has really had particular meaning for me back along the time of when I was driving down West and avenue that I was telling you about? Yeah. When God gave me that, that revelation of my innocence, and that verse just, I don't even remember how I came upon it at the time I just did. And it still just sticks with me today. Yeah.

So this, this whole topic of innocence, you just brought that back up, I wanted to ask you, if you would pray for people that are that are listening to this, that God will just renew their innocence in their life, or however, gotta lead you to speak about that specific thing. Because I just feel like there's something that God wants to do. through that. Would you might Would you mind just praying for that or speaking to that,

right? Absolutely.

Lord, we come to your throne together.

And we cry, holy, holy, holy.

And we say, Jesus, we worship you.

We worship you.

You called us, you set us apart from our mother's womb. You called us by your grace, you do have special plans for each one of us. For everyone listening, you have a special plan for that person's life. And for those who are dealing with guilt, and they're dealing with shame, because of some sexual abuse, some molestation, some fear that has come upon them, and they have lost their innocence, they feel that their innocence has been stripped from them, and that you look on them as if they are soiled, and they feel soiled. Lord, they feel dirty. I just pray that you would whisper your words of comfort and peace, that you would speak to their hearts even now. And that they would know that they are valued, that they are loved. That nothing that has happened to them has changed your plans for them at all. But Lord, I pray that they would open their hands to you and say, take this burden from me. Take this guilt, take this shame, because it doesn't belong to them, Lord. And I know that you will take it, and that you would use it for Your glory. You'll use it for your victory in their lives. And I just pray that you do more than john and i could imagine, for anyone listening. And I pray that lives would be transformed and renewed and redeemed by the power of your great love. And in the strength of your awesome name Jesus we pray. Amen. Amen. Thank you for that.

Yeah. As we wrap up, I, I'd like to ask you, what are some books that have influenced your life that you would recommend for me? Oh, my.

Oh, I just finished one by Jerry bridges, the pursuit of holiness. Have you read that for that? Yeah. Oh, I just read it. And it was one of those books I had on my shelf for the longest time, and I never read it, and I loved it. Another one is running for mercy by Anthony J. Carter. And it's the story of Jonah. And the surprising story of God's unstoppable grace. I literally just read these books back to back. So those are the ones that are you know, obviously, on the top of my mind, yeah, but I loved both of these books. And they're short read, they're not a huge read. So I really like that as well. But those are the two that that come to mind, because I just finished them.

Yeah. That's great. So Donna, how do we find your books? How do we find more information about you?

Well, I have a website. It's my name, Donna van leer. com. I cannot vouch for how up to date it is. Because like I said, I'm not technical at all. But Amazon has all of my books on the online stores have my books Barnes and Noble, which is still standing as my books. Unfortunately, a lot of bookstores have closed but Barnes and Noble still has them. So I'm, you know, the books are out there. And like I said, I've got that new one coming out in March, which I'm excited about the time of Jacob's trouble. Yes. Yeah.

I'm looking forward to this. Well, thanks, john. definitely have to have you on real life to talk about it right.

And hopefully, it won't be snowing it of course, it's in March.

So there's a chance that there's a better chance that will be that'll be nice, right. But I'll provide links for Donna's information in the show notes. So you can just scroll down and click on that stuff. But Donna, thank you so much for spending some time with me and allowing me to come into your home and to talk with you.

Well, absolutely. Thank you, john, you literally got off a plane in a car and drove up to my house. Wow. You didn't even unpack a bag yet. That's how committed you are to this podcast.

But appreciate it really liked it.

I know that Donna didn't really invent Christmas. But she does have a remarkable gift to create wonderful Christmas stories. Last year, I saw a great movie called The man who invented Christmas about Charles Dickens. So I just thought that the woman who invented Christmas would be a great title for this episode. As Donna said, in the end there, I really did just land in Nashville and do an interview with her even before I got to where I was staying for my trip. And I'm very glad I did that. Even though Donna is probably most well known for her Christmas books, there is so much more to her than just the feel good Hallmark stories. I appreciate her openness to share about how she started writing and especially about her struggling with abuse and how God spoke to her and healed her from that. There is always hope for our circumstances. And as Donna said, God has a plan a God still has a plan a no matter how far we've got off track. She said that the goal for her Christmas stories is that people would know that hope is alive. Let's hold on to hope in the true meaning of Christmas, Jesus Christ. I found it interesting that even though Donna has a gift for writing, her ability did not necessarily apply to the technical side of writing. Knowing what you aren't good at is as important as knowing what you are. Without the distractions so you don't waste time and energy trying to do things that you aren't gifted to do. I was not expecting Donna to share about the childhood story of her innocence being taken. I really appreciate that she did open up and talk about this. So many people have been abused and need to experience God's healing. I love that God spoke to Donna through the joyful little jumping girl all dressed in pink. She was innocent, and there was no blame in her. And that's how God really saw Donna to her prayer was really powerful. And if you felt moved by that Please receive God's healing and find help to reclaim that innocence that was taken. daughter's life verse was relations 115 but God had special plans for me before I was born. He called me by His grace. God really does have a plan A and wants us all to get back on track. No matter how many times we get derailed. Donna talked about the importance of reading the Bible for yourself in context. She said, Don't take my word for it, study it for yourself. Jesus said Watch out that no one deceive you. The best defense for that is to get God's Word in you any way possible. We talked about even using the audio Bible, which I personally strongly suggest. I'm really enjoying doing that myself. Donna recommended the books pursuit of holiness by Jerry bridges and running for mercy by Anthony J. Carter. her upcoming book, The time of Jacob's trouble will be available in March. I'm going to be putting a link for Donna's website in the show notes and you can find her books all over the place. Thank you for listening to along the way. If you've enjoyed joining me along my way, please share this with a friend who you think we'll be encouraged by this podcast. Also, please rate and review along the way on iTunes. That helps more people discover along the way. And subscribe to this podcast on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and at my website along the way dot media. You can also email me at John along the way@gmail.com I hope that you've enjoyed this part of my journey and may you realize when Jesus is walking with you along your way.