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Oct. 18, 2024
Rebuilding Hope: Recovering After A Storm Destroys the Church?
This episode was released on October 9, 2024.
In this insightful interview, Natalie Runion discusses her latest book "The House That Jesus Built" and the urgent need to rebuild the foundations of the church. Covering topics like deconstruction, abuse, and restoring authenticity, Natalie provides a biblical blueprint for how the church can be restored. Whether you're a church leader or a believer seeking to strengthen your faith, this conversation offers valuable wisdom and encouragement for the journey ahead.
Natalie Runion
@raisedtostay
Transcript
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that said, OK, we're in the rubble of deconstruction.
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It's not a bad thing.
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But now we have this huge task as a generation to rebuild.
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And thankfully, we have a blueprint for that
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in the word of God.
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Natalie Runyon, it is great to have you back here on Charisma.
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And it was just not too long ago that you and I
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talked for the first time.
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And that time was about your book,
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Raised to Stay, which was about identifying church hurt
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and how we don't need to necessarily run away.
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But we can be healing agents.
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And really, since then, we have seen scandal
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after scandal in the church.
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We've seen the IHOP KC issues with Mike Bickel
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and now recently with Robert Morris at Gateway Church
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and the issues that have come out.
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But God prompted you ahead of time
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to write your latest book on the heels of Raised to Stay.
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And now it's the house that Jesus built.
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And so Natalie, I got to ask you,
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why did you feel such an urgency to get this book out so quickly?
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It was so interesting how Raised to Stay hadn't even
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gone to edits yet.
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And I was asking the Lord, just in my quiet time,
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if I were to put out a second book later down the road,
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what would that second book be?
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And this phrase, the house that Jesus built,
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just kind of was dancing around in my spirit a little bit.
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And so I actually looked up the story
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of the three little pigs.
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And I was like, because when you think about building houses
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and an enemy, you think of this nursery rhyme
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that we grew up hearing about all the time.
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And so there is actually a moral to this story
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was that these three little pigs were tasked with building
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houses that would protect them from the enemy.
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But two of them wanted to go play.
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And so they built fast and they built with bad materials.
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And as a result of that, the one who built not in a hurry,
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the one who built with good materials with the brick
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is the one that actually could withstand
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the hot air of the enemy when that wolf came in to huff
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and puff and blow the house down.
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And I started thinking about our churches
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and this deconstruction movement that we've been in
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and thinking, you know, there have been some foundational
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issues where we as church people have built fast
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and we've built on bad foundation.
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And now we're seeing the enemy come in and huff and puff
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and blow our churches down through moral failures,
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sheep that are being abused, all of the things that led us
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to this deconstruction.
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So throughout all of scripture, God allowed his people
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to tear things down.
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But there was always a blueprint to rebuild.
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And so I wanted to write a book that said,
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okay, we're in the rubble of deconstruction.
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It's not a bad thing.
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But now we have this huge task as a generation to rebuild.
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And thankfully we have a blueprint for that
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in the word of God.
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Yeah, you know, a couple of years ago at my parents' house,
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there was an issue with the foundation
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in part of the house.
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And they actually had to have somebody come in
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and figure out how to shore up the foundation
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and fix everything.
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And that was a big, expensive process.
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And it wasn't because the foundation was previously bad.
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It was just that it was very, very old and things had decayed.
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So we need to pay attention to our foundations all the time
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and make sure that everything's are cleared out.
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But what are some of these foundational things
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that we really need to make sure that we are building upon?
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And what are some of the things that we've built upon
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that are crumbling?
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Well, in the raised estate community, which is online,
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we have a very robust family of about 180,000 of, you know,
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stayers who are very honest with me about the reasons why
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they have gone through a deconstruction process
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or why they've left their faith altogether.
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And a lot of it came down to being severely disappointed
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and hurt by people who should know better
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and are behaving badly through abuse, celebrity culture,
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not being integrists with their finances.
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There are so many things that, like you said,
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the foundation could have started well,
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but over time it has become decayed
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due to us not taking care of it.
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And so when I looked at the different things
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that people were telling me,
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we really came down to spiritual abuse.
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It came down to an orphan spirit
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that a lot of our pastors and leaders have come under
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when they haven't reached celebrity status.
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We've got a lot of consumers in the kingdom now
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who want the church to work for them
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and not the other way around.
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And so those foundational practices I talk about
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in those first four chapters of like, what took us down?
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What is it that made us unsteady?
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And then in those last eight chapters,
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I talk about the book of Acts.
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And I go into Acts chapter two,
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which we love the second chapter of Acts as Pentecostals
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because we're like, man, there's like tongues of fire
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and they're speaking in tongues.
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But really when Peter stands up
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and he begins to preach this message in the upper room,
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what he's doing is he's laying out a foundational surface
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for the very first church, which was repentance,
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reconciliation, forgiveness, communion, worship,
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the word of God.
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And so when we look at all of those elements,
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we think, wow, it's actually not having to recreate the wheel.
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If we as a church just went back to that second chapter
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of Acts and saw what was growing the church daily then,
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what if we were to go back to those foundational basics
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in our church today?
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And just as it says in the message translation,
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the people on the outside looked within the walls
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of the upper room and generally liked what they saw.
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Like, great would it be if the world looked
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into our churches and generally liked what they saw?
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Yeah.
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So we focus so much on appearances in the church.
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There's a lot of facade.
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In fact, that's actually one of the biggest complaints
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that I believe people of the world have is that,
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Christians, they just wear masks all the time.
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They're not real.
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How do we show the reality or the realness,
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the authenticity, but still the joy of the Lord?
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Well, I think that's why social media
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is such an interesting space
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because there is a lot of chatter of just being honest.
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Like, let's just be honest for honesty sake
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and let's be vulnerable for vulnerability sake.
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And what can happen is if there's not enough healing
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in those spaces, it can just become a cesspool
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of our wounds kind of meshing together
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and creating this nasty abyss of just woundedness.
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But when we marry honor and honesty,
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and we say, it's okay to be honoring to the leaders
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that have gone before us,
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honoring of those who have paved ways for us,
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but also honest that there have been some things
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that were allowed in the church at the hands of those leaders
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and even at our own hands that have wounded people.
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So how do we talk about that as the church
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in a way that still honors the Lord,
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still honors the organization that is the church,
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that is Jesus's idea,
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and then also honors those who have been wounded
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and who have been victims and not silence their stories,
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but also being honest.
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And in this space where we can say, we know that hurt
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and this should have never happened
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and sitting with empathy for both places,
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because I know a lot of shepherds right now
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who aren't hurting their sheep.
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I know a lot of good shepherds,
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there's more good shepherds than bad shepherds.
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And they're having to kind of take on the blunt,
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the brutal force of a generation
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who's been wounded by the few.
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Yeah, you know, as pastors,
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they're sometimes guilty by association
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and just by being a pastor.
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I know that hurt people hurt people.
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And so if they go from one church to another,
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they're not necessarily healing as they should.
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And so they'll sometimes take their offense
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and put it and project it onto a pastor
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who's not an issue.
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But there are issues.
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I mean, we've had some major ones come out
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in the news recently,
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but those churches are still filled with people
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that love Jesus.
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And, you know, do you throw the baby out with the bath water?
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Do you clean the baby?
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I mean, how do you deal with this
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whenever you have a leader that's fallen?
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What happens to the sheep?
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Well, I've noticed that there are some
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who are looking for a reason to completely walk away.
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And all it will take is one moral failure
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of a leader they thought was infallible
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to give them permission to say,
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well, I knew the church was crazy.
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I knew all the leaders were bad.
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They're no different than the world.
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I'm gonna move on.
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And that's a very small percentage of people, I believe,
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who are in that camp.
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What I believe is happening now
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is that the church has been so hungry for revival,
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so hungry for a move of God that isn't just encounter,
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but also biblical formation and understanding
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and seeing the great commission come to fruition
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in our time, that people are willing
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to not throw the baby out with the bath water,
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but they're a little bit more willing
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to have their foundations checked.
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So as these leaders are falling,
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you're noticing other pastors saying,
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whoa, I don't want that to be my legacy.
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I don't want that to be my story.
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Because you have to remember,
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if the enemy can't kill us
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and he can't basically destroy us,
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he'll try to steal our legacy.
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And that's really the unfortunate thing
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of what's happening right now
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is men who have had legacies and ministry
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are losing those legacies
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and being known for moral failures
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and not all the good they did in the kingdom.
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So we're seeing pastors say, whoa,
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I don't want that to be my legacy.
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Come in and we're gonna hire outside groups
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to do a good check on us, to check on our staff,
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to check on our foundation
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so that we can be up for the next 100 years.
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Yeah.
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So what are some things that we can do to protect ourselves
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or to let's say, shore up that foundation ahead of time?
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Because you just mentioned about people coming in
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and checking on things,
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but I'm thinking about a small church,
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the pastor's maybe got 150 people there.
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If he's doing everything he can to make sure
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that the widow is being taken care of,
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that the poor person is good,
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that the people that are doing well in the church
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are leading and growing in the Lord,
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they can't necessarily bring in an outside audit and stuff.
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But I'm thinking about those pastors as well.
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How can they connect to this message?
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Well, first of all,
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I think we all need to do individual foundation checks
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in our own life.
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I ask why this scripture is search my heart, oh Lord,
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and show me if any wicked ways in me.
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And I'm gonna worry about the plank in my own eye
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before I worry about the speck in someone else's.
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So if my foundation as the ecclesia,
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as the call it out one,
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part of the global church is not healthy.
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And then I go into a church building
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with a bunch of unhealthy little ecclesias,
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then we are probably all going to end up
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at each other's throat for the end of this time
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of being a Christian on this earth.
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So really we all have to start on our own foundations.
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Am I built on Jesus?
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Do I offer reconciliation and forgiveness?
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And am I worshiping?
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Am I doing everything I'm demanding from the church?
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And then second of all, for us and any leader,
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the biggest thing is just, am I pointing people to Jesus?
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Am I doing everything in the scriptures
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that Jesus was doing,
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that he was encouraging his disciples to do?
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And if I can say, yes, I'm doing all of those things,
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then when people come in with a critical spirit,
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which is different than a foundational check,
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but a critical spirit,
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we're able to show them this list of,
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look what we're doing in our city
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and look what we're doing in our Judea and our Samaria
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and to the ends of the earth
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and look how many people are coming to know the Lord.
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And you're just every day getting back on mission
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with that great commission and that great command
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of loving God and loving people.
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And that's really what I'm looking for as a lay person.
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When I walk into a church,
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are they on mission with the great commission
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and are they offering me the great command?
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And are they offering me opportunities
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to do the same in return?
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And so that's a basic start, right?
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Where we can just look within our own hearts,
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am I doing those things?
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And then I'm walking into my church
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and I'm saying, they're doing those things.
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And also remember this, it's not the shepherd's job.
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It is not the lead pastor's job
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to make sure that all of the Christians are behaving.
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His job is to protect the sheep
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and to make sure that the sheep are being fed.
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And so we all owe it to each other to be responsible
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and to be our brother's keeper.
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Yeah.
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So Natalie, as you were putting together this book,
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the house that Jesus built
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and as you're working on this blueprint,
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tell me about the research that you've done
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and as you're putting everything together
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to help us kind of see what this needs to look like today.
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Well, I learned more about construction
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than I ever wanted to learn.
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We were actually ironically building our house
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when I was writing this book.
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And what was so crazy about it is that I wanted to move in
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a lot sooner than we did, because we were moving states.
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And I was talking to our main contractor.
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And I said, I just want it to get done faster
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than it's getting done.
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And he looked at me and he said,
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ma'am, would you like this house built quickly
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or would you like it done safely?
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And I, from there on was like,
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I'm actually intrigued by this.
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And so what I started doing is looking at different terms
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in the construction world when you're building a house.
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And one of those researches that I did
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was on this concept of rubblization,
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where you take the foundation of an old entity
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or an old building and you actually use what's left over
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to create the foundation of the new thing
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that you're building.
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And what I loved about that is that Jesus has already come in
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and done the work.
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So we're not like having to build anything new.
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We are literally taking what Jesus has given us and saying,
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okay, there's some things that we need to maybe detangle from
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that the world has added into this,
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but now we're gonna start rebuilding with Jesus.
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And so I just went through the whole construction process
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of what it looks like to lay down a floor plan,
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a framing and all of that,
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and how important spiritually that is in our own lives
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to have that framework in our life
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that is the word of God, to have the foundation of Jesus,
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to have a floor plan that is invitational
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and laid out well so that people see our hearts
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and they see our minds and our souls
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and we're not just religious people running around.
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And so I did a lot of that research.
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And then I did a ton of research on the book of Acts
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and what happened when everyone in that upper room
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left the upper room, because thank God they left
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the upper room so they could take the church beyond.
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And all of the different people who were involved in Acts
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and taking this church out to a world,
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the different relationships that were involved
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from Paul and Silas and Luke and all of the women
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who were included in that with Lydia and John Mark's mom,
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Mary and even Dorcas and Aquila and Priscilla
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and how so many people came along to help create
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this framework that is now the church.
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Yeah, that's so cool.
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Cause you can look through the Bible
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and see how things are actually laid out in the foundation
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and you just have to put on those glasses
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of a blueprint maker and as a construction worker
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and see, oh, this does make sense.
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And the Old Testament is so rich in it as well.
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I mean, you think about Nehemiah,
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like the builders had a hammer and a sword in their hand,
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one to build and one to fight.
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And I see that for us now is we're the ready builders
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with Jesus today.
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Like we're defending some people,
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we're defending some things, but we're also building
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and he's tasked us for both.
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Yeah.
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So you mentioned the Old Testament.
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I think it's super interesting that the Bible
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is very specific on the dimensions and the decorations
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for the temple and the tabernacle.
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As you're looking at blueprints for your house
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and you're looking at blueprints in the Old Testament
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and the New Testament, what are some other things
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that have surprised you that you were like,
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I've never seen that as a building implement
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or a foundational aspect before?
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I mean, you just think about like all of the different
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individual beams that have to be put in
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just for there to be stability for the other beams
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that are gonna be coming in.
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We look at a house and we say, wow, that's a beautiful house.
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Kind of the way we look at a church,
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we think that's a massive cathedral,
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but we forget that there are these individual
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single unit things like the gyms in the New,
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in the Old Testament, the different carpet colors,
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the curtains, there are things that are strategically placed
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within the walls that you can't even necessarily see
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right off the bat that are there for protection,
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beauty, for character, to tell a story,
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to provide historical context.
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And so I think for the average person,
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they look at a church and they see four things.
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They see the outside structure, they see the inside decor,
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they see who's on the platform
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and they see who has the authority.
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And while all of those four things
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are absolutely important,
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that's not actually what's keeping the church up.
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What's keeping the church up is the prayers of the people.
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It's the intercession.
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It is the things that we are doing behind the scenes
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that nobody gets a Facebook highlight reel on, right?
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And so I think that's what has shocked me the most
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is like we ignore and potentially don't take care of
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the things that are hidden because it doesn't look attractive,
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but it's actually what's keeping us up.
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Yeah, the foundations and the structure, the bones of a house
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is really important.
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And I've heard people say that house has good bones.
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It's got good structure, it's got strength,
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all the supporting walls are in the right places
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and doing what they're supposed to be doing.
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And yeah, those things don't get seen all the time.
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00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,360
You mentioned earlier about your community,
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00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:07,800
the raised to stay community, the stayers,
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00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,720
and there's like 100,000 some people in this,
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which is that's amazing that that many people
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00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,520
have connected to this message.
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You mentioned about deconstruction.
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And I think we talked about that
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in our previous conversation as well.
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And deconstruction is something that is,
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00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,600
it's different than demolition.
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00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,240
A lot of times people deconstruct their faith,
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but really they're just demolishing it.
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And they're not actually doing it
433
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,680
with the intention of building it back up again.
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00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,800
Can you talk about what a healthy deconstruction is?
435
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Well, I've had to talk a lot of pastors off the ledge,
436
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:43,840
excuse me.
437
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:45,560
I've had to talk a lot of pastors off the ledge
438
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because they hear this deconstruction
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00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:48,960
and they're like my parents age and they think,
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00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:50,640
well, that must mean deconversion.
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00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:51,480
And it's like, no,
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00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,120
deconstruction isn't necessarily deconversion.
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It can just be a detangling.
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It's things that people have placed on us
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that aren't even scriptural or aren't the Lord.
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And so in my foreword of raised to stay,
447
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,040
Lisa Bevere says that deconstruction
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00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,680
without any plan to rebuild is just destruction.
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00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:10,880
And so we really have to search our own hearts
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00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,920
when we're going through our own faith detangling
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00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:15,920
to say, okay, am I doing this
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because there are some things that I'm carrying
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that God never asked me to carry like shame, guilt,
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things about my sins I know are forgiven
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that people keep putting on me,
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different things that we were raised in maybe as kids
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that actually aren't even scriptural.
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And then doing what you just talked about
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where we just demolish our faith and walk away altogether.
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And what's hard about having a social media presence
461
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like the one that I have is that I have all spectrums
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00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,520
and everyone feels validated
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in why they did it the way that they did it.
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And so really that's why we need wise counsel in our lives,
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mentorship, discipleship, pastors, shepherds
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that are healthy to help us discern
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if we are really gonna rebuild
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or if we're gonna slowly walk away altogether.
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Yeah, and we want people to rebuild, obviously.
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That's the big thing because we don't want anybody
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to walk away from the Lord.
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But one of the big reasons that people would walk away
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from the Lord is because of spiritual abuse
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or physical abuse, sexual abuse within a church
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by an authority figure.
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And the commonists that we have left here,
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can we talk about that?
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Because that has been the biggest issue
479
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,760
in the news recently, those specific things,
480
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spiritual abuse and sexual abuse.
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How can we help people with that?
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00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,520
Well, I always say that we have got
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00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,680
to be better listeners as a church.
484
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,000
We can sit down with somebody over coffee
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and think we've scratched the surface
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00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,320
of who they are and what they are.
487
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,200
But the minute that somebody tells us,
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I was abused by the church or I was hurt by the church,
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that's not just like a gloss over,
490
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,240
like, okay, next conversation.
491
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,000
That's an invitation for us to ask deeper questions
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00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,920
and to find out, okay, what kind of hurt are we talking about?
493
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,120
What kind of abuse are we talking about?
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00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:05,440
So we don't let somebody just stay wounded
495
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:06,960
and just keep on moving.
496
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,960
We also have to stop defending the church.
497
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,440
Jesus himself, he will defend his church.
498
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,040
We have to start getting to a place
499
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,240
where we're not so busy trying to defend pastors and people,
500
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but that we really are more interested
501
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:18,800
in protecting the sheep.
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00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,120
So I always say, if somebody comes to you and says,
503
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:24,880
I've been abused, we need to take that absolutely serious
504
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:26,120
the first time that it's said
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so that we can do some investigating.
506
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,400
And if it's a child, especially, if it's a teenager,
507
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,240
because that's where the police get involved.
508
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,640
And so I just wanna echo how serious it is
509
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,040
because it is happening.
510
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,480
The documentaries like Shiny Happy People,
511
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,640
things like that that are starting to come out,
512
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,000
those are giving people who have been victimized voices,
513
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,400
thank God, because now they realize, oh, I'm not alone.
514
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,760
If it happened in Texas, if it happened in Utah,
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00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,280
if it happened in New York, it can happen to me in Montana.
516
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,400
You know, this was something that really happened.
517
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,640
So thankfully we're starting to give voices to our victims
518
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,920
to be able to walk this healing thing out.
519
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,240
The worst thing that we can do though,
520
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:05,600
is to isolate the victim
521
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,360
and to make them feel like it's their fault.
522
00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:10,400
And I think that what we try to do when these big names
523
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,320
get exposed for this type of behavior
524
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,600
is because they feel more familiar to us.
525
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,800
We think that doesn't sound like so-and-so.
526
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,160
Well, we don't know so-and-so.
527
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,080
We just know their online presence.
528
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,520
So I always am just such an advocate
529
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,480
for let's be good listeners.
530
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:25,600
Let's be good friends.
531
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,640
Let's be good shepherds to the sheep God's entrusted to us
532
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,800
and then help them take the next steps
533
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,200
towards counseling, healing,
534
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,320
so that they won't leave the church altogether
535
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,400
and they'll know they're safe somewhere.
536
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:38,560
Yeah.
537
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,400
Natalie, as we're wrapping up here,
538
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,600
what encouragement can you give to people
539
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:48,200
that are struggling with this, that are wrestling, I guess,
540
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,640
is probably a better term than that.
541
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:52,560
And then would you pray for people
542
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,000
that are kind of in this need right now too?
543
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,840
Yeah, you know, I think you guys, first of all,
544
00:21:57,840 --> 00:21:59,200
you have to know you're not alone.
545
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,120
I mean, we all, especially in our generation,
546
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:03,920
in the 40s, 50s, we're really disappointed.
547
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:05,800
There's just been a lot of disappointment.
548
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:06,640
And guess what?
549
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:07,960
We've disappointed people too.
550
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,640
We're not completely exempt from hurting people
551
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,760
and being disappointing for others.
552
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,120
And so to own that and say,
553
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:16,400
Father, forgive me for the way that I've hurt your sheep,
554
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,240
for the way that I've been part of tearing things down
555
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:20,680
that you didn't want torn down,
556
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,680
or the way that I've been part of making the foundation
557
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,840
a little bit risky, like I have to pray that prayer.
558
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:31,000
And second of all, to say that there are better churches
559
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,440
out there than what you think.
560
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,440
I always say this, that there are more healthy churches
561
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,400
and more healthy pastors out there than unhealthy ones.
562
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,400
And so to remember that it could be kind of like a year
563
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,560
of trying different churches, and as our church says,
564
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:44,720
you can date for a little bit,
565
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,400
but eventually you gotta put a ring on it.
566
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,160
You know, you want to get to a point
567
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,520
where you are in community,
568
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,320
where you can have that experience that hurt you redeemed
569
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:54,640
by a community that can love you,
570
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:55,760
and a shepherd who can love you.
571
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,080
And finally, just to know that you do have family
572
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,560
in the family of God, that you are not an orphan
573
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,320
and you're wanted desperately by God
574
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,720
and by the people that he's entrusted to take care of you.
575
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,720
So don't ever give up on Jesus, number one.
576
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,600
If you can't go back to church, don't give up on Jesus,
577
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,800
but know that his family is pretty cool too.
578
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:17,240
And would you pray for people?
579
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:18,080
Yes.
580
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,520
God, I thank you so much, Lord, for your church.
581
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,200
I thank you, Lord, for your bride.
582
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,200
She is radiant and she is beautiful,
583
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,160
and you are coming back for her.
584
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,800
Father, you are so proud of your children.
585
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,800
You love us so much, God.
586
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,320
And I just pray for those who are wandering right now,
587
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,160
who at one time was part of a good community,
588
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:39,760
at one time was on a church staff
589
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,360
and vibrant in their faith.
590
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:42,920
Father, I pray that that flame
591
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,000
would just be stirred up in them right now.
592
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,840
God, that they would be reminded of the promises
593
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,040
you spoke over them when they were young
594
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,000
and that that flame would just move
595
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:52,880
into a giant forest fire, God,
596
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:54,200
that would put them back on mission
597
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,880
with the great commission and loving people well.
598
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:58,960
God, I just pray, Lord, for those who are wounded,
599
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,040
Father, that you would bind up those wounds
600
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,560
and that you would bring healing
601
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,040
for those who have been disappointed, God,
602
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,280
that you would bring people into their lives, Father,
603
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,160
to give them faith again, maybe for the first time
604
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:10,720
and going back into a church building.
605
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,640
And for those who are just tired
606
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,800
and weary of all of the stuff they're seeing, God,
607
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,480
that you would just put them back in your word
608
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,160
and remind them of what you have to say
609
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,080
because you have the final word.
610
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,680
And I just pray, God, for peace over all of your people now.
611
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,960
In Jesus' name, amen.
612
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:25,800
Amen.
613
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,840
Natalie, thank you so much for joining us today here
614
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,200
on Charisma, and I just wanna encourage everybody,
615
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,600
you can get her books, Raised to Stay,
616
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,040
and the new one that's coming out,
617
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:36,840
The House that Jesus Built.
618
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:38,760
You can get those everywhere the books are available
619
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,560
and definitely on Amazon as well.
620
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,400
Put the link in the description for that as well.
621
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,680
So Natalie, thank you so much for joining us today.
622
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:52,680
Thanks for having me, John.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,960
that said, OK, we're in the rubble of deconstruction.
2
00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:03,240
It's not a bad thing.
3
00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,880
But now we have this huge task as a generation to rebuild.
4
00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:08,920
And thankfully, we have a blueprint for that
5
00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:09,880
in the word of God.
6
00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:13,240
Natalie Runyon, it is great to have you back here on Charisma.
7
00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,880
And it was just not too long ago that you and I
8
00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:17,600
talked for the first time.
9
00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:19,200
And that time was about your book,
10
00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,920
Raised to Stay, which was about identifying church hurt
11
00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,520
and how we don't need to necessarily run away.
12
00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,160
But we can be healing agents.
13
00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,440
And really, since then, we have seen scandal
14
00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:33,680
after scandal in the church.
15
00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:37,760
We've seen the IHOP KC issues with Mike Bickel
16
00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,360
and now recently with Robert Morris at Gateway Church
17
00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:43,480
and the issues that have come out.
18
00:00:43,480 --> 00:00:45,960
But God prompted you ahead of time
19
00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,240
to write your latest book on the heels of Raised to Stay.
20
00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,880
And now it's the house that Jesus built.
21
00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:54,960
And so Natalie, I got to ask you,
22
00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,640
why did you feel such an urgency to get this book out so quickly?
23
00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,280
It was so interesting how Raised to Stay hadn't even
24
00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:03,400
gone to edits yet.
25
00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,720
And I was asking the Lord, just in my quiet time,
26
00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,200
if I were to put out a second book later down the road,
27
00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:10,680
what would that second book be?
28
00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:13,520
And this phrase, the house that Jesus built,
29
00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,920
just kind of was dancing around in my spirit a little bit.
30
00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,440
And so I actually looked up the story
31
00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:20,920
of the three little pigs.
32
00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,480
And I was like, because when you think about building houses
33
00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:25,600
and an enemy, you think of this nursery rhyme
34
00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,760
that we grew up hearing about all the time.
35
00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:29,880
And so there is actually a moral to this story
36
00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,600
was that these three little pigs were tasked with building
37
00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,760
houses that would protect them from the enemy.
38
00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:36,800
But two of them wanted to go play.
39
00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,280
And so they built fast and they built with bad materials.
40
00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,560
And as a result of that, the one who built not in a hurry,
41
00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,080
the one who built with good materials with the brick
42
00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:47,880
is the one that actually could withstand
43
00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,640
the hot air of the enemy when that wolf came in to huff
44
00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:51,920
and puff and blow the house down.
45
00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,640
And I started thinking about our churches
46
00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,960
and this deconstruction movement that we've been in
47
00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,840
and thinking, you know, there have been some foundational
48
00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,680
issues where we as church people have built fast
49
00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:05,920
and we've built on bad foundation.
50
00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,720
And now we're seeing the enemy come in and huff and puff
51
00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,480
and blow our churches down through moral failures,
52
00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,640
sheep that are being abused, all of the things that led us
53
00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:15,760
to this deconstruction.
54
00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,240
So throughout all of scripture, God allowed his people
55
00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:20,320
to tear things down.
56
00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,440
But there was always a blueprint to rebuild.
57
00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:24,440
And so I wanted to write a book that said,
58
00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:26,080
okay, we're in the rubble of deconstruction.
59
00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:27,360
It's not a bad thing.
60
00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:31,000
But now we have this huge task as a generation to rebuild.
61
00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,040
And thankfully we have a blueprint for that
62
00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:34,360
in the word of God.
63
00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,000
Yeah, you know, a couple of years ago at my parents' house,
64
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,040
there was an issue with the foundation
65
00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:40,880
in part of the house.
66
00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,280
And they actually had to have somebody come in
67
00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,680
and figure out how to shore up the foundation
68
00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:47,840
and fix everything.
69
00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,480
And that was a big, expensive process.
70
00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,320
And it wasn't because the foundation was previously bad.
71
00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,960
It was just that it was very, very old and things had decayed.
72
00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,440
So we need to pay attention to our foundations all the time
73
00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,800
and make sure that everything's are cleared out.
74
00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,160
But what are some of these foundational things
75
00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,080
that we really need to make sure that we are building upon?
76
00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,560
And what are some of the things that we've built upon
77
00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:13,320
that are crumbling?
78
00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,520
Well, in the raised estate community, which is online,
79
00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,440
we have a very robust family of about 180,000 of, you know,
80
00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,000
stayers who are very honest with me about the reasons why
81
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:25,960
they have gone through a deconstruction process
82
00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:27,960
or why they've left their faith altogether.
83
00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,680
And a lot of it came down to being severely disappointed
84
00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,040
and hurt by people who should know better
85
00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:39,120
and are behaving badly through abuse, celebrity culture,
86
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,160
not being integrists with their finances.
87
00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:43,680
There are so many things that, like you said,
88
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,560
the foundation could have started well,
89
00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,480
but over time it has become decayed
90
00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:50,160
due to us not taking care of it.
91
00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,160
And so when I looked at the different things
92
00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:53,480
that people were telling me,
93
00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,280
we really came down to spiritual abuse.
94
00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,080
It came down to an orphan spirit
95
00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,000
that a lot of our pastors and leaders have come under
96
00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,120
when they haven't reached celebrity status.
97
00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,640
We've got a lot of consumers in the kingdom now
98
00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:06,320
who want the church to work for them
99
00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:07,440
and not the other way around.
100
00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,160
And so those foundational practices I talk about
101
00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,840
in those first four chapters of like, what took us down?
102
00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,480
What is it that made us unsteady?
103
00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,200
And then in those last eight chapters,
104
00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:19,520
I talk about the book of Acts.
105
00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,640
And I go into Acts chapter two,
106
00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,280
which we love the second chapter of Acts as Pentecostals
107
00:04:24,280 --> 00:04:26,320
because we're like, man, there's like tongues of fire
108
00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:27,920
and they're speaking in tongues.
109
00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:29,760
But really when Peter stands up
110
00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,600
and he begins to preach this message in the upper room,
111
00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,440
what he's doing is he's laying out a foundational surface
112
00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,200
for the very first church, which was repentance,
113
00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,360
reconciliation, forgiveness, communion, worship,
114
00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:44,200
the word of God.
115
00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,320
And so when we look at all of those elements,
116
00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,480
we think, wow, it's actually not having to recreate the wheel.
117
00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,160
If we as a church just went back to that second chapter
118
00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,960
of Acts and saw what was growing the church daily then,
119
00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,240
what if we were to go back to those foundational basics
120
00:04:58,240 --> 00:04:59,280
in our church today?
121
00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:01,760
And just as it says in the message translation,
122
00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,280
the people on the outside looked within the walls
123
00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:07,240
of the upper room and generally liked what they saw.
124
00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,840
Like, great would it be if the world looked
125
00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:12,920
into our churches and generally liked what they saw?
126
00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:13,760
Yeah.
127
00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,960
So we focus so much on appearances in the church.
128
00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:19,400
There's a lot of facade.
129
00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,600
In fact, that's actually one of the biggest complaints
130
00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,720
that I believe people of the world have is that,
131
00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,040
Christians, they just wear masks all the time.
132
00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:27,920
They're not real.
133
00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:33,720
How do we show the reality or the realness,
134
00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:37,120
the authenticity, but still the joy of the Lord?
135
00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:40,160
Well, I think that's why social media
136
00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:41,480
is such an interesting space
137
00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,280
because there is a lot of chatter of just being honest.
138
00:05:45,280 --> 00:05:47,440
Like, let's just be honest for honesty sake
139
00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,760
and let's be vulnerable for vulnerability sake.
140
00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,600
And what can happen is if there's not enough healing
141
00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,400
in those spaces, it can just become a cesspool
142
00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:57,720
of our wounds kind of meshing together
143
00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,360
and creating this nasty abyss of just woundedness.
144
00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,760
But when we marry honor and honesty,
145
00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,720
and we say, it's okay to be honoring to the leaders
146
00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:08,760
that have gone before us,
147
00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,040
honoring of those who have paved ways for us,
148
00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,680
but also honest that there have been some things
149
00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,640
that were allowed in the church at the hands of those leaders
150
00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,520
and even at our own hands that have wounded people.
151
00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,800
So how do we talk about that as the church
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in a way that still honors the Lord,
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still honors the organization that is the church,
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that is Jesus's idea,
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and then also honors those who have been wounded
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and who have been victims and not silence their stories,
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but also being honest.
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And in this space where we can say, we know that hurt
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and this should have never happened
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and sitting with empathy for both places,
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because I know a lot of shepherds right now
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who aren't hurting their sheep.
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I know a lot of good shepherds,
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there's more good shepherds than bad shepherds.
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And they're having to kind of take on the blunt,
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the brutal force of a generation
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who's been wounded by the few.
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Yeah, you know, as pastors,
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they're sometimes guilty by association
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and just by being a pastor.
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I know that hurt people hurt people.
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And so if they go from one church to another,
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they're not necessarily healing as they should.
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And so they'll sometimes take their offense
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and put it and project it onto a pastor
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who's not an issue.
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But there are issues.
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I mean, we've had some major ones come out
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in the news recently,
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but those churches are still filled with people
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that love Jesus.
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And, you know, do you throw the baby out with the bath water?
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Do you clean the baby?
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I mean, how do you deal with this
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whenever you have a leader that's fallen?
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What happens to the sheep?
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Well, I've noticed that there are some
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who are looking for a reason to completely walk away.
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And all it will take is one moral failure
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of a leader they thought was infallible
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to give them permission to say,
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well, I knew the church was crazy.
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I knew all the leaders were bad.
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They're no different than the world.
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I'm gonna move on.
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And that's a very small percentage of people, I believe,
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who are in that camp.
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What I believe is happening now
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is that the church has been so hungry for revival,
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so hungry for a move of God that isn't just encounter,
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but also biblical formation and understanding
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and seeing the great commission come to fruition
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in our time, that people are willing
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to not throw the baby out with the bath water,
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but they're a little bit more willing
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to have their foundations checked.
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So as these leaders are falling,
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you're noticing other pastors saying,
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whoa, I don't want that to be my legacy.
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I don't want that to be my story.
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Because you have to remember,
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if the enemy can't kill us
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and he can't basically destroy us,
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he'll try to steal our legacy.
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And that's really the unfortunate thing
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of what's happening right now
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is men who have had legacies and ministry
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are losing those legacies
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and being known for moral failures
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and not all the good they did in the kingdom.
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So we're seeing pastors say, whoa,
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I don't want that to be my legacy.
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Come in and we're gonna hire outside groups
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to do a good check on us, to check on our staff,
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to check on our foundation
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so that we can be up for the next 100 years.
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Yeah.
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So what are some things that we can do to protect ourselves
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or to let's say, shore up that foundation ahead of time?
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Because you just mentioned about people coming in
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and checking on things,
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but I'm thinking about a small church,
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the pastor's maybe got 150 people there.
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If he's doing everything he can to make sure
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that the widow is being taken care of,
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that the poor person is good,
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that the people that are doing well in the church
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are leading and growing in the Lord,
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they can't necessarily bring in an outside audit and stuff.
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But I'm thinking about those pastors as well.
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How can they connect to this message?
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Well, first of all,
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I think we all need to do individual foundation checks
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in our own life.
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I ask why this scripture is search my heart, oh Lord,
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and show me if any wicked ways in me.
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And I'm gonna worry about the plank in my own eye
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before I worry about the speck in someone else's.
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So if my foundation as the ecclesia,
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as the call it out one,
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part of the global church is not healthy.
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And then I go into a church building
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with a bunch of unhealthy little ecclesias,
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then we are probably all going to end up
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at each other's throat for the end of this time
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of being a Christian on this earth.
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So really we all have to start on our own foundations.
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Am I built on Jesus?
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Do I offer reconciliation and forgiveness?
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And am I worshiping?
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Am I doing everything I'm demanding from the church?
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And then second of all, for us and any leader,
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the biggest thing is just, am I pointing people to Jesus?
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Am I doing everything in the scriptures
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that Jesus was doing,
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that he was encouraging his disciples to do?
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And if I can say, yes, I'm doing all of those things,
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then when people come in with a critical spirit,
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which is different than a foundational check,
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but a critical spirit,
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we're able to show them this list of,
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look what we're doing in our city
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and look what we're doing in our Judea and our Samaria
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and to the ends of the earth
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and look how many people are coming to know the Lord.
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And you're just every day getting back on mission
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with that great commission and that great command
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of loving God and loving people.
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And that's really what I'm looking for as a lay person.
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When I walk into a church,
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are they on mission with the great commission
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and are they offering me the great command?
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And are they offering me opportunities
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to do the same in return?
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And so that's a basic start, right?
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Where we can just look within our own hearts,
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am I doing those things?
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And then I'm walking into my church
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and I'm saying, they're doing those things.
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And also remember this, it's not the shepherd's job.
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It is not the lead pastor's job
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to make sure that all of the Christians are behaving.
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His job is to protect the sheep
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and to make sure that the sheep are being fed.
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And so we all owe it to each other to be responsible
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and to be our brother's keeper.
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Yeah.
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So Natalie, as you were putting together this book,
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the house that Jesus built
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and as you're working on this blueprint,
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tell me about the research that you've done
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and as you're putting everything together
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to help us kind of see what this needs to look like today.
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Well, I learned more about construction
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than I ever wanted to learn.
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We were actually ironically building our house
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when I was writing this book.
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And what was so crazy about it is that I wanted to move in
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a lot sooner than we did, because we were moving states.
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And I was talking to our main contractor.
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And I said, I just want it to get done faster
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than it's getting done.
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And he looked at me and he said,
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ma'am, would you like this house built quickly
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or would you like it done safely?
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And I, from there on was like,
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I'm actually intrigued by this.
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And so what I started doing is looking at different terms
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in the construction world when you're building a house.
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And one of those researches that I did
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was on this concept of rubblization,
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where you take the foundation of an old entity
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or an old building and you actually use what's left over
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to create the foundation of the new thing
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that you're building.
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And what I loved about that is that Jesus has already come in
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and done the work.
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So we're not like having to build anything new.
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We are literally taking what Jesus has given us and saying,
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okay, there's some things that we need to maybe detangle from
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that the world has added into this,
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but now we're gonna start rebuilding with Jesus.
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And so I just went through the whole construction process
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of what it looks like to lay down a floor plan,
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a framing and all of that,
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and how important spiritually that is in our own lives
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to have that framework in our life
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that is the word of God, to have the foundation of Jesus,
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to have a floor plan that is invitational
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and laid out well so that people see our hearts
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and they see our minds and our souls
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and we're not just religious people running around.
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And so I did a lot of that research.
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And then I did a ton of research on the book of Acts
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and what happened when everyone in that upper room
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left the upper room, because thank God they left
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the upper room so they could take the church beyond.
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And all of the different people who were involved in Acts
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and taking this church out to a world,
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the different relationships that were involved
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from Paul and Silas and Luke and all of the women
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who were included in that with Lydia and John Mark's mom,
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Mary and even Dorcas and Aquila and Priscilla
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and how so many people came along to help create
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this framework that is now the church.
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Yeah, that's so cool.
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Cause you can look through the Bible
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and see how things are actually laid out in the foundation
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and you just have to put on those glasses
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of a blueprint maker and as a construction worker
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and see, oh, this does make sense.
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And the Old Testament is so rich in it as well.
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I mean, you think about Nehemiah,
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like the builders had a hammer and a sword in their hand,
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one to build and one to fight.
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And I see that for us now is we're the ready builders
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with Jesus today.
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Like we're defending some people,
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we're defending some things, but we're also building
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and he's tasked us for both.
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Yeah.
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So you mentioned the Old Testament.
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I think it's super interesting that the Bible
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is very specific on the dimensions and the decorations
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for the temple and the tabernacle.
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As you're looking at blueprints for your house
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and you're looking at blueprints in the Old Testament
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and the New Testament, what are some other things
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that have surprised you that you were like,
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I've never seen that as a building implement
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or a foundational aspect before?
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I mean, you just think about like all of the different
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individual beams that have to be put in
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just for there to be stability for the other beams
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that are gonna be coming in.
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We look at a house and we say, wow, that's a beautiful house.
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Kind of the way we look at a church,
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we think that's a massive cathedral,
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but we forget that there are these individual
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single unit things like the gyms in the New,
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in the Old Testament, the different carpet colors,
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the curtains, there are things that are strategically placed
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within the walls that you can't even necessarily see
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right off the bat that are there for protection,
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beauty, for character, to tell a story,
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to provide historical context.
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And so I think for the average person,
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they look at a church and they see four things.
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They see the outside structure, they see the inside decor,
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they see who's on the platform
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and they see who has the authority.
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And while all of those four things
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are absolutely important,
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that's not actually what's keeping the church up.
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What's keeping the church up is the prayers of the people.
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It's the intercession.
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It is the things that we are doing behind the scenes
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that nobody gets a Facebook highlight reel on, right?
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And so I think that's what has shocked me the most
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is like we ignore and potentially don't take care of
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the things that are hidden because it doesn't look attractive,
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but it's actually what's keeping us up.
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Yeah, the foundations and the structure, the bones of a house
414
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,160
is really important.
415
00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,760
And I've heard people say that house has good bones.
416
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,040
It's got good structure, it's got strength,
417
00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,120
all the supporting walls are in the right places
418
00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:57,600
and doing what they're supposed to be doing.
419
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,000
And yeah, those things don't get seen all the time.
420
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,360
You mentioned earlier about your community,
421
00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:07,800
the raised to stay community, the stayers,
422
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,720
and there's like 100,000 some people in this,
423
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:12,440
which is that's amazing that that many people
424
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,520
have connected to this message.
425
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,120
You mentioned about deconstruction.
426
00:17:18,120 --> 00:17:19,120
And I think we talked about that
427
00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:21,200
in our previous conversation as well.
428
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,640
And deconstruction is something that is,
429
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,600
it's different than demolition.
430
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,240
A lot of times people deconstruct their faith,
431
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:31,720
but really they're just demolishing it.
432
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,080
And they're not actually doing it
433
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,680
with the intention of building it back up again.
434
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,800
Can you talk about what a healthy deconstruction is?
435
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,000
Well, I've had to talk a lot of pastors off the ledge,
436
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:43,840
excuse me.
437
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:45,560
I've had to talk a lot of pastors off the ledge
438
00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,320
because they hear this deconstruction
439
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:48,960
and they're like my parents age and they think,
440
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:50,640
well, that must mean deconversion.
441
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:51,480
And it's like, no,
442
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,120
deconstruction isn't necessarily deconversion.
443
00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:55,480
It can just be a detangling.
444
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,600
It's things that people have placed on us
445
00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,680
that aren't even scriptural or aren't the Lord.
446
00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,640
And so in my foreword of raised to stay,
447
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,040
Lisa Bevere says that deconstruction
448
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,680
without any plan to rebuild is just destruction.
449
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:10,880
And so we really have to search our own hearts
450
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,920
when we're going through our own faith detangling
451
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:15,920
to say, okay, am I doing this
452
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,000
because there are some things that I'm carrying
453
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,360
that God never asked me to carry like shame, guilt,
454
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:23,640
things about my sins I know are forgiven
455
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,680
that people keep putting on me,
456
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,200
different things that we were raised in maybe as kids
457
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,040
that actually aren't even scriptural.
458
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:31,920
And then doing what you just talked about
459
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,960
where we just demolish our faith and walk away altogether.
460
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,160
And what's hard about having a social media presence
461
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,800
like the one that I have is that I have all spectrums
462
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,520
and everyone feels validated
463
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,640
in why they did it the way that they did it.
464
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,920
And so really that's why we need wise counsel in our lives,
465
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,240
mentorship, discipleship, pastors, shepherds
466
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,080
that are healthy to help us discern
467
00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,000
if we are really gonna rebuild
468
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,920
or if we're gonna slowly walk away altogether.
469
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,360
Yeah, and we want people to rebuild, obviously.
470
00:19:04,360 --> 00:19:07,000
That's the big thing because we don't want anybody
471
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,320
to walk away from the Lord.
472
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,560
But one of the big reasons that people would walk away
473
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,840
from the Lord is because of spiritual abuse
474
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,720
or physical abuse, sexual abuse within a church
475
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:20,600
by an authority figure.
476
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:22,480
And the commonists that we have left here,
477
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:23,800
can we talk about that?
478
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,400
Because that has been the biggest issue
479
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,760
in the news recently, those specific things,
480
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:30,760
spiritual abuse and sexual abuse.
481
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,320
How can we help people with that?
482
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,520
Well, I always say that we have got
483
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,680
to be better listeners as a church.
484
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,000
We can sit down with somebody over coffee
485
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,400
and think we've scratched the surface
486
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,320
of who they are and what they are.
487
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,200
But the minute that somebody tells us,
488
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,560
I was abused by the church or I was hurt by the church,
489
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,240
that's not just like a gloss over,
490
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,240
like, okay, next conversation.
491
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,000
That's an invitation for us to ask deeper questions
492
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,920
and to find out, okay, what kind of hurt are we talking about?
493
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,120
What kind of abuse are we talking about?
494
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:05,440
So we don't let somebody just stay wounded
495
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:06,960
and just keep on moving.
496
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,960
We also have to stop defending the church.
497
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,440
Jesus himself, he will defend his church.
498
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,040
We have to start getting to a place
499
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,240
where we're not so busy trying to defend pastors and people,
500
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:17,880
but that we really are more interested
501
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:18,800
in protecting the sheep.
502
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,120
So I always say, if somebody comes to you and says,
503
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:24,880
I've been abused, we need to take that absolutely serious
504
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:26,120
the first time that it's said
505
00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:27,600
so that we can do some investigating.
506
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,400
And if it's a child, especially, if it's a teenager,
507
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,240
because that's where the police get involved.
508
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,640
And so I just wanna echo how serious it is
509
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,040
because it is happening.
510
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,480
The documentaries like Shiny Happy People,
511
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,640
things like that that are starting to come out,
512
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,000
those are giving people who have been victimized voices,
513
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,400
thank God, because now they realize, oh, I'm not alone.
514
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,760
If it happened in Texas, if it happened in Utah,
515
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,280
if it happened in New York, it can happen to me in Montana.
516
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,400
You know, this was something that really happened.
517
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,640
So thankfully we're starting to give voices to our victims
518
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,920
to be able to walk this healing thing out.
519
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,240
The worst thing that we can do though,
520
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:05,600
is to isolate the victim
521
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,360
and to make them feel like it's their fault.
522
00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:10,400
And I think that what we try to do when these big names
523
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,320
get exposed for this type of behavior
524
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,600
is because they feel more familiar to us.
525
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,800
We think that doesn't sound like so-and-so.
526
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,160
Well, we don't know so-and-so.
527
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,080
We just know their online presence.
528
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,520
So I always am just such an advocate
529
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,480
for let's be good listeners.
530
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:25,600
Let's be good friends.
531
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,640
Let's be good shepherds to the sheep God's entrusted to us
532
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,800
and then help them take the next steps
533
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,200
towards counseling, healing,
534
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,320
so that they won't leave the church altogether
535
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,400
and they'll know they're safe somewhere.
536
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:38,560
Yeah.
537
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,400
Natalie, as we're wrapping up here,
538
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,600
what encouragement can you give to people
539
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:48,200
that are struggling with this, that are wrestling, I guess,
540
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,640
is probably a better term than that.
541
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:52,560
And then would you pray for people
542
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,000
that are kind of in this need right now too?
543
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,840
Yeah, you know, I think you guys, first of all,
544
00:21:57,840 --> 00:21:59,200
you have to know you're not alone.
545
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,120
I mean, we all, especially in our generation,
546
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:03,920
in the 40s, 50s, we're really disappointed.
547
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:05,800
There's just been a lot of disappointment.
548
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:06,640
And guess what?
549
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:07,960
We've disappointed people too.
550
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,640
We're not completely exempt from hurting people
551
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,760
and being disappointing for others.
552
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,120
And so to own that and say,
553
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:16,400
Father, forgive me for the way that I've hurt your sheep,
554
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,240
for the way that I've been part of tearing things down
555
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:20,680
that you didn't want torn down,
556
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,680
or the way that I've been part of making the foundation
557
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,840
a little bit risky, like I have to pray that prayer.
558
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:31,000
And second of all, to say that there are better churches
559
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,440
out there than what you think.
560
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,440
I always say this, that there are more healthy churches
561
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,400
and more healthy pastors out there than unhealthy ones.
562
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,400
And so to remember that it could be kind of like a year
563
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,560
of trying different churches, and as our church says,
564
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:44,720
you can date for a little bit,
565
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,400
but eventually you gotta put a ring on it.
566
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,160
You know, you want to get to a point
567
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,520
where you are in community,
568
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,320
where you can have that experience that hurt you redeemed
569
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:54,640
by a community that can love you,
570
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:55,760
and a shepherd who can love you.
571
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,080
And finally, just to know that you do have family
572
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,560
in the family of God, that you are not an orphan
573
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,320
and you're wanted desperately by God
574
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,720
and by the people that he's entrusted to take care of you.
575
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,720
So don't ever give up on Jesus, number one.
576
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,600
If you can't go back to church, don't give up on Jesus,
577
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,800
but know that his family is pretty cool too.
578
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:17,240
And would you pray for people?
579
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:18,080
Yes.
580
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,520
God, I thank you so much, Lord, for your church.
581
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,200
I thank you, Lord, for your bride.
582
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,200
She is radiant and she is beautiful,
583
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,160
and you are coming back for her.
584
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,800
Father, you are so proud of your children.
585
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,800
You love us so much, God.
586
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,320
And I just pray for those who are wandering right now,
587
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,160
who at one time was part of a good community,
588
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:39,760
at one time was on a church staff
589
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,360
and vibrant in their faith.
590
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:42,920
Father, I pray that that flame
591
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,000
would just be stirred up in them right now.
592
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,840
God, that they would be reminded of the promises
593
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,040
you spoke over them when they were young
594
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,000
and that that flame would just move
595
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:52,880
into a giant forest fire, God,
596
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:54,200
that would put them back on mission
597
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,880
with the great commission and loving people well.
598
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:58,960
God, I just pray, Lord, for those who are wounded,
599
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,040
Father, that you would bind up those wounds
600
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,560
and that you would bring healing
601
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,040
for those who have been disappointed, God,
602
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,280
that you would bring people into their lives, Father,
603
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,160
to give them faith again, maybe for the first time
604
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:10,720
and going back into a church building.
605
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,640
And for those who are just tired
606
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,800
and weary of all of the stuff they're seeing, God,
607
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,480
that you would just put them back in your word
608
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,160
and remind them of what you have to say
609
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,080
because you have the final word.
610
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,680
And I just pray, God, for peace over all of your people now.
611
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,960
In Jesus' name, amen.
612
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:25,800
Amen.
613
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,840
Natalie, thank you so much for joining us today here
614
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,200
on Charisma, and I just wanna encourage everybody,
615
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,600
you can get her books, Raised to Stay,
616
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,040
and the new one that's coming out,
617
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:36,840
The House that Jesus Built.
618
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:38,760
You can get those everywhere the books are available
619
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,560
and definitely on Amazon as well.
620
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,400
Put the link in the description for that as well.
621
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,680
So Natalie, thank you so much for joining us today.
622
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:52,680
Thanks for having me, John.
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