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Sept. 28, 2024
Rise of the Anti Christ: Navigating the End Times Chaos - Max Lucado
This episode was released on September 18, 2024.
In this insightful interview, author Max Lucado joins host John Matarazzo to discuss his new book "What Happens Next" and provide a biblical perspective on the end times. Lucado shares his personal journey in understanding the millennium, the rapture, and the role of Israel in end-time prophecy.
The conversation also delves into the current crisis at Gateway Church, where Lucado has been assisting the congregation. He shares how he is seeking to minister to the hurting and guide the church back to the teachings of Jesus during this challenging time.
This interview offers a thoughtful and hope-filled look at the end times while also addressing the real-world struggles faced by the modern church. Viewers will come away with a deeper understanding of these important topics and practical wisdom for navigating times of crisis.
Transcript
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As our world seems to be crashing around us, so many people are wondering what happens next.
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And we as Christians know that we have the answers because it's already been written in the book.
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But the Bible is full of mysteries and we are called to search the scriptures to find the answers.
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And with us today is Max Lucado, the author of the brand new book, What Happens Next?
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And this is really a 101 Revelation End Times book.
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We're helping a lot of people understand what is happening next.
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So, Max, welcome to Charisma.
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Thank you. Thank you.
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It's really an honor to be with you.
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And yes, I was hoping that I could write a book that could be placed in the hand of someone who says,
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you know, I'd love to study about End Times, but the whole topic is just so overwhelming.
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And then there's so many different opinions.
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Would somebody help me distill it down to a form that I could understand?
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And I'm trying to speak to that need in this book.
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And in our world today, with everything that's going on, people are really asking these questions.
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I know whenever I was growing up, there was wars and rumors of wars and we would hear about different things
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that were happening in the Middle East.
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And that's when I first heard about Revelation.
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I was probably seven, eight years old listening to Dr. David Jeremiah on the radio.
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And I was scared.
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I was really scared because it was back in the 90s and we were going to the Middle East.
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And I was like, what is happening?
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I'm not going to be able to survive this.
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Help me to understand this.
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And so books like yours are super, super helpful to take the scare factor out of the End Times.
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What inspired you to write this book?
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A couple of things.
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One, I am just insatiably curious about what's about to happen to me personally.
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I'm moving up there.
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You know, I've got a lot more sand on the bottom of my hourglass than I do on the top.
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Thankfully, I'm in good health.
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I'm able to be productive and I'm able to do things.
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But I'm almost 70 and I know, you know, that my years are all of our years are numbered,
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but I can see the countdown.
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And I'm very excited to think about what I will see the moment I close my eyes on this version of my existence.
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I'm just curious.
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I catch myself, John, thinking about it two or three times a day.
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And it's a wonderful thought.
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It's an uplifting thought.
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And I've been like that for a good decade now.
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And so that led to me wanting to understand more.
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I'm curious about the future.
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And I'm concerned about the present.
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I feel like we're seeing things unfold that Scripture has forecasted.
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And I would imagine our great grandparents could never see the things, imagine seeing the things we're seeing today.
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For example, the regathering of the children of Israel to the nation of Israel or the surrounding of Israel by the enemies of Israel,
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or even some of the AI elements of our society that would allow the prophecies of the book of Revelation to be fulfilled
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with the mark of the beast or the managing of the currencies, things that I would imagine, again,
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my great grandparents or even grandparents would read that and say, I just can't envision that happening.
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Boy, I can. I could see it happening.
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And so those two things came together, John, curious about my own personal future and then concerned about the status of the world.
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And I began presenting these messages to our church in San Antonio, Texas, where I've served for many years now.
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And it really resonated, really resonated.
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I was surprised how fearful people are.
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And then I was also amazed how teaching on end times is evangelistic.
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We had many people come to Christ or come to faith because they're just wanting somebody to explain things to them.
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And when you lay it out clearly on a timeline or some type of sequential explanation, they resonate and they want that.
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And so it's a very evangelistic tool to talk about end times.
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Absolutely. And I know the as you read Revelation, there is a blessing that is that is a part of that.
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Great point. As we study it, as we read it, there is a blessing that God promises.
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And as you're reading it, you're like, how does this blessing actually fit with what we're reading here?
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But Revelation isn't the only book in the Bible that talks about the end.
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I mean, Jesus prophesied about things in the end and there's the in Daniel Ezekiel talks about the end as well.
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I mean, it's all throughout. If you're looking for it, the revelation is kind of really focuses in on what's going to happen at the end.
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But beyond the end is really, really powerful.
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And that's this millennium principle, this millennium kingdom.
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And I'd like to talk about that because this is something where there's a lot of debate about this.
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Is the millennial real? Is it not real? Is it before? Has it already happened? Is it going to happen?
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Help us understand this. Well, now that I've written this book, there'll be no more debate.
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I answer all the questions. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
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And by the way, you're spot on about that promise of a blessing to anybody who studies or reads Revelation.
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It's the only book in the Bible that comes with a blessing.
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And so may everybody who reads it be blessed.
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And I think one way that we are blessed in studying prophetic books is we come to an understanding of what is about to happen.
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You mentioned the millennium. Revelation, Chapter 20, dedicates six verses, no, eight verses,
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but makes six references to this thousand year reign of Christ.
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There are a variety of ways that passage is interpreted.
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But for the sake of simplicity, I think there's two buckets.
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One is that person who says, that's all symbolic language. We're living in the millennium right now.
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The other is the person who says, no, that's not symbolic.
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That's literal language. And that millennium is yet to come.
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And I find this really interesting because I've moved from one bucket to the other.
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I went to a seminary that taught what we call all millennialism or the more symbolic view.
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I never had a pastor who was a pre-millennial teacher.
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Every pastor I had growing up taught a more symbolic view of Scripture.
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And I myself, for the first maybe 10 years of my ministry, embraced that teaching.
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Now, this is one of those topics where we're going to have robust discussion.
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But I think you can make a better case for the fact that there is truly going to be a thousand years
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in which Christ will be crowned, in which Satan will be bound, and we will reign with Christ for those thousand years.
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And I'm genuinely excited about that. In the book, I really go into detail as to how I changed my mind.
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But a super 30-second summary would be that there's promises in the Bible that can only be fulfilled during a millennium.
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The oppression of the devil is not taking place right now. He's not been bound. He is alive and well.
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A more word-for-word interpretation of Scripture allows us to embrace those thousand years as literal years.
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I think it's important that of the early Church fathers, for the first 300 years, the Church was overwhelmingly pre-millennial.
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There were a few exceptions, but overwhelmingly, the early Church fathers, including one who studied with the Apostle John, spoke of the literal millennium.
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And then lastly, there's two resurrections described in the teaching of Revelation 20, one at the beginning, one at the end of the thousand-year reign.
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How can you have two resurrections if there is not a millennium to separate them? So those are my reasons.
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I do think it's a valid and important discussion, because the way you see the millennium will inform the way you see in times.
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It's kind of like a keystone, and you build around it.
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If there is going to be a millennium, then somehow the Church has to return to earth and be a part of the millennium.
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And then if there's going to be a millennium, Satan has returned at the end of it.
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And so when you begin piecing the sequence together, it comes together in a mosaic that seems to make exciting and wonderful sense.
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I hope I didn't cover too much too fast in that answer.
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No, I think we're going to go a little bit deeper into that, because you brought up something there at the end that I was hoping that you would.
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And that was the fact that the way that you view the millennium affects the way that you view the end times.
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And I want to take that even further. The way that you view the end times affects the way that you live today.
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Amen. So how is the different understandings of the end times, especially with the millennium, how does that affect our today?
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Well, I'm of the belief that if a person dies today, they go directly to paradise.
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And we can talk about paradise here in just a moment.
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But the next major event on the prophetic calendar is, in my estimation, the rapture,
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that God will rapture the Church and He will deliver us from the wrath that is to come.
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And the wrath that is to come is that period of tribulation.
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And then the tribulation is concluded by Christ returning to earth, and we will return with Him, and He'll set up His kingdom on earth.
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All of that makes sense to me. But if you take the millennium out of the sequence, out of the timeline,
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it seems like there's no answer to the questions of what do you do with the first Thessalonians, four of us meeting Christ in the clouds?
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Why do we have Revelation 19? We're returning with Christ. He's on the stallion. We're returning with Him.
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How did we get there? What do we do? What's the difference?
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Putting it all together, as some of my good friends do, and I'll say brothers and sisters in Christ do,
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it doesn't distinguish the events, separate the events, as it seems to me the New Testament writers inspired by the Holy Spirit want them to be separated.
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There is a clear differentiation between those events. And in my all-millennial days, I just kind of clustered them all together.
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Somehow we're going to go up into the sky, come back down. The thousand years is happening right now, but what about Satan being bound? He's not really bound now.
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I had little questions buzzing around inside my head, John, but I didn't deal with them.
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And when I began to try to answer them, I didn't like the answers.
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A more sequential, dispensational view makes better sense to me. Again, my apologies. These discussions are challenging because we're covering so much material in two or three minute soundbites.
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Right. Right. Well, let's talk about another soundbite issue, and that's the rapture, which is something that is not actually...
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That word is not actually in Scripture. It is a word that we use to describe the concept of the saints being taken up.
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And Jesus talked about it, that one would be taken and one would be left. And when he was with his disciples on the earth, and we see in Revelation, there's different principles and stuff for that.
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But help us understand about the rapture.
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I think the rapture is such an exciting event to which we can look.
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I have been surprised how many people said, you know, I grew up being afraid of the rapture.
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I was just afraid of it. I was afraid that I came home from school one day and mom and dad were gone.
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I thought I'd been left behind. And so I like to be many, many times.
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I'd wake up from a nap or something and then nobody's there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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And so may the Lord comfort us all. May the Lord comfort us all.
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Remember what he said in John 14, do not let your hearts be troubled.
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So don't let your heart be troubled over this promise. There's a purpose for the rapture.
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You're exactly right. The word rapture is a word that emerged out of a translation of the Greek translation of Jerome.
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When he translated the Bible into Latin, that resulted in a word that we now use as rapture. First Thessalonians chapter four, the Greek verb there is har pod.
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So it means to be snatched up, to be taken away.
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And this moment is an event in which we will be taken up into the clouds to meet Christ in the air.
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It's different than Revelation 19 when we return with Christ and Christ puts his feet on Mount of Olives.
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Lord, let that day come soon. But those are two separate events.
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Now, here's the reason that I think the rapture, we should look forward to it with joy.
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On 9 11, I raptured my daughters. We saw the terrible things unfolding on the television screen, my wife and I did.
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And I turned to her and she looked at me and I said, you're thinking what I'm thinking.
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And she went to one school and got two of our daughters. I went to another school and got the third daughter.
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We raptured them. We snatched them because we didn't know what was about to happen.
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But whatever it was, we wanted them to be with us.
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It seems the best interpretation of these scriptures to me is that Christ will rapture his church to deliver us from a coming wrath.
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And that wrath is the tribulation.
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And the rapture is when he will come and rescue the church, take us into paradise with him.
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And we will enjoy conscious fellowship with him.
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We will be recognized by Christ, rewarded by Christ, wedded to Christ.
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And while that's happening, that's when the tribulation will break out on earth.
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People will have no explanation for all those millions, maybe a billion Christians who have disappeared and they'll conjure up some kind of explanation.
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It'll open the doors at the stage for the Antichrist, some demonic presence of a person of great persuasion or rhetorical skill.
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And he will calm everything down. And he's the one who will negotiate that peace treaty that Daniel speaks about.
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And midway through that peace treaty, he'll break it. And that's when really all hell will break loose.
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And so the rapture, I believe, John, rescues us prior to that.
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And I'll have two more points and I'll be done. Now, point number one, Jesus compared that moment to the days of Noah.
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Point number two, he compared that moment to the days of Lot.
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When you look at the days of Noah, Noah was rescued prior to the flood and Lot was well, he never felt any brimstone that I can tell upon him.
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They were rescued prior to that in like manner, I believe, will be rescued prior to that.
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Again, good brothers and sisters have already written me having read my book and said, no, no, Max, we're going to go through that tribulation.
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Well, I'll pray for you. You pray for me. If we end up going through it, I'll depend on you.
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If we end up not going through it, I'll celebrate with you. I don't. I just don't think we will.
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I believe we'll be rescued prior to the tribulation. What are your thoughts?
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Well, that is my hope for sure, because I personally don't want to go through the tribulation that we read about.
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But we do know that there will be trials and tribulations that we go through as believers.
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They just might not be the tribulation that we're talking about here.
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And so, you know, just because we believe in Jesus doesn't mean that our life is going to be all PG Keene all the time.
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But he promises that he will be with us and he will never forsake us. And that's a that's a promise that we can really hold on to.
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So you mentioned the Antichrist. So if Jesus, the Christ, is never going to leave us or forsake us, the Antichrist is well, the opposite of that.
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He's going to forsake. He will leave. He will abandon. He will manipulate and all of these things.
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Do you think that the Antichrist is alive today? I think that a candidate for the Antichrist is alive in each and every generation.
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And here's my reasoning on that. Satan is not omniscient. He cannot see the future.
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And he's waiting on the rapture for the before the tribulation will begin.
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And second Thessalonians talks about the restrainer being removed. And that's a very robust scripture as well.
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It seems to me that the word restrainer there is referring to the influence of the Holy Spirit through the church, the salt and light.
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So imagine how chaotic and rotten the world will get when all the Christians are gone.
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You know, I mean, we're not perfect, but you remove God fearing, taxpaying, hardworking, good neighbors.
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You just evacuate them from the earth. The earth is going to spin into moral chaos very, very quickly.
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Well, that opens the door and sets the stage for the Antichrist.
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But Satan does not know when the Antichrist, when the rapture is going to happen.
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So in each generation, he likely has a candidate. You remember how he entered Judas so that Judas would betray Christ.
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The scripture says Satan entered Judas. Right.
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In a like manner, I think Satan will enter the body of somebody who's charismatic, who's charming, who's a great oratorical skills, who's a great peacemaker.
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But they will be the proxy. They'll be the tool of the devil.
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So in most, so I believe there is a candidate alive and well on the planet today.
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Whether or not that person will be the Antichrist, I don't know. I don't know.
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So you think there's a candidate for the Antichrist at every generation because the devil doesn't know when it's time to pull the trigger.
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Exactly. You could have said it better. The Lord will lead his sheep into the fold.
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And at that point, that'll be an open door for Satan to do his work.
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There is quite a bit of discussion. Will the rapture trigger the tribulation? Will the tribulation occur immediately after the rapture?
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It seems to me that there's no real clear answer to that. It could be a matter of months, maybe years, but I don't think it'll be long.
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I don't think it'll be long.
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If we're called to occupy until he comes and then he comes, we're no longer occupying after that point.
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Therefore, there's nothing holding back the wickedness and the craziness that's going to be out there from the devil.
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With all of these things that we're seeing in our headlines right now and with the war in Israel that has been going on for a year almost,
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Israel's in the headlines and Israel is really the centerpiece of Revelation, the centerpiece of the end times.
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I think in our Western theology and our Western mentality, we kind of think of America as the center of the world.
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But that's not how the Bible describes it. Two questions. First, where do you think America is in the end times?
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That's always a fun discussion there. But looking at Israel, what do we need to be looking out for in that region of the world?
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Is Israel not the most fascinating topic? I'm like you, I think.
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Surely, the United States is in the center of the story, but we're not. We're just one of many nations.
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I think we're a blessed nation. I'm honored to have spent my life, most of it, in the United States.
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But the main player is Israel. God made promises to Abraham before he was Abraham to bless the seed and the soil of Abraham.
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And boy, has he not kept those promises. He blessed the seed. I mean, because of the Jews, we have the prophets, we have Psalms,
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we have the Bible, we have the church. Most of all, we have Jesus Christ.
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He has blessed the world and continues to bless the world through the seed of Abraham, the Jewish people.
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And he has also promised soil, soil to Israel. And I think this is really an important discussion when it comes to end times.
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What happened in May of 1948? I believe that my great-great grandparents are my great-grandparents, and I never knew them.
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I don't know if they were Bible scholars or students or not. But had they pursued a better understanding of Scripture,
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probably would have read those prophecies about Israel returning or being regathered in a day to their homeland.
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They probably would have read those and said, now that'll never happen. That'll never happen. I mean, the Jews are scattered all over the world.
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But we saw, we didn't see it. But there was a miracle that took place on May 8, 1948, when President Truman signed into effect the right for the Jews to return to Israel.
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To me, I agree with those teachers of prophecy who call that a super sign. What happened that day set the stage for the rest of history.
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So God has always had a place for Israel. He has always had. Now, why? Why? Is there something special about Israel?
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Nope. Nothing, not anything about Israel. In fact, Moses told the Israelites, it's not because you're big or strong, it's because God chose to have grace upon you or mercy upon you.
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And I can relate to that. God has used me, an old converted drunk, not because of anything that I have or any intellect I bring or any power that I might possess.
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He does so because of grace. So God in his sovereign grace has chosen to use Israel. Now, real quickly, I really think, I really think a lasting contribution of Israel,
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certainly say the greatest, the greatest is Jesus Christ. But a lasting contribution will happen during the tribulation. And when I read that list of 12,000 Jews, each from a different tribe of Israel,
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and then the next passage that declares that a multitude, too great to count from every tribe and nation is proclaiming Christ.
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And I realized, oh, that's the greatest revival in the history of the world. And it will happen because these Jewish evangelists go out sealed by Christ, carrying the gospel of Christ.
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This is part of the fulfillment of God's covenant that he would bless the world through the children of Israel.
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So as the church age comes to an end at the rapture, the next stage, the age of the tribulation, while horrible, while terrible, will witness a revival unlike any we've ever seen.
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And it will come because of the vast number of 144,000 Jews converting to Christ.
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Wow. You know, one of the things that you mentioned there was that this the promise of soil and the the promised land that we know of as Israel.
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Well, as we look at the promises of God with this, it's not just from the river to the sea, which is actually what the Palestinians are saying from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.
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Well, they're they're willfully on there. It's far greater what what God has promised Israel, but they've never fully, fully realized the boundaries that God has promised.
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Is that the millennial kingdom? What are your thoughts on this?
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You're you being you says you ask the best questions. I love these questions. OK, so I've wrestled with that one. Here's my answer.
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For certain in the millennial kingdom, Israel will have the full extent of the land promised to them for certain.
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I believe that perhaps something will happen even before the rapture in which the boundaries of Israel will be expanded.
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I'm reading still. I'm praying still. I'm asking people, do you have a sense for an answer to that right now?
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I'm very comfortable saying, yeah, that'll for sure happen in the millennial kingdom.
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Will it happen before the rapture? Maybe you have the answer to that one, John.
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I don't have the answer for that one. I'm waiting and seeing.
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Yes, you know, Jesus told his disciples to come and see.
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And so, you know, the disciples were told to come and see.
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And so that's that's kind of how I'm approaching this.
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But I'm like thinking God promised this. His word will not go forth empty or void.
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We know it says in Isaiah fifty five that it will go out and accomplish everything that it has that it has been prophesied,
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everything that is said, and it will not return empty or void.
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So these things that we just were talking about, we can know without a shadow of a doubt that they will happen.
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We just don't understand exactly how it will unfold and in the timing.
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But we know that we can look back and say, oh, my gosh, God said this.
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He fulfilled his word just as he said, isn't he great because that drives us to to worship him and glory and glorify him.
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One of the things that that I've that I've thought about for a long time is in heaven, we are going to be worshiping God forever.
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Tell me about what as you were studying this and you were writing this,
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what revelations of the revelation of worship has come to your heart?
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Well, can you imagine the moment that we finally.
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It's as if we know the scripture in Revelation 21, behold, I make all things new, make all things.
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I wonder if Jesus is going to say that, you know, if we'll hear those words, I am making all things new.
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He just declares it and everything is suddenly new.
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The new universe, new earth, I know by then we'll already have glorified bodies.
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Those will come at the rapture.
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But perhaps there's even a new element to our bodies that will come to us.
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But what we will most certainly have is the desire to offer endless worship to our Lord and Savior.
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With with tongues that will never grow weary, with minds that have no questions,
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with spirits that have no guilt, with an understanding that has no doubts,
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we will finally be able to say, you're my king, I love you.
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And we will worship him. We will willingly bow down and worship him.
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And I do get that question quite often from people, but Max, you mean to tell me that heaven is an endless worship service?
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Won't I get bored?
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And my answer to them is quickly, no, you won't be the same you in heaven.
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You won't be the same. The reason we get bored is because our minds get tired.
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We lose attention. We don't have long attention spans.
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In heaven, there's a version of you that's waiting to happen in which you'll never be tired.
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And you'll always be amazed. So don't filter our eternal state through our earthly state.
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We have this tendency to take the physics of this life and interpret the reality of the next life through the physics of this one.
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We'll be entirely different. We'll be entirely different.
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And so the worship will be perfect. It will be unending and it will fill everything.
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It will just fill everything because there will be no Satan.
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He'll be thrown into the bottomless pit, which is another phrase that I love.
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Bottomless pit. I've seen a lot of pits, but I've never seen a bottomless pit.
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So Satan is going to be falling and flailing throughout eternity.
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He won't even be around. He'll be out of the picture.
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And we'll be able to worship with the angels, with the saints that have gone before.
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You know, the Bible says every knee shall bow, every knee shall bow.
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And so that includes the demons.
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That includes those who have reacted against Christ before they are cast away from Christ forever.
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Even they, you know, the most vile, desperate ruler in all of history will bow.
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He will bow. The demons will bow. There'll be a worship service in Hades.
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They'll bow. Everybody will bow.
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And those of us who are bowing before him now will gladly bow and will be so full of joy.
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Those others will be full of dread because they knew they missed it.
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They missed it. But those of us who are bowing before him now will bow before him then and will gladly worship him forever.
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You know, Max, as we're wrapping up here, you just made mention of those that will bow
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because they are in love with Jesus and those that will bow because they're in fear of Jesus.
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And I want to ask you, we've been talking about Revelation, we've been talking about the end times,
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and there is a blessing for those who hear it, who study it.
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But there is a big blessing for those who bow their knee to Jesus in this life before that end.
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I don't want to miss this opportunity to ask you to speak to somebody who needs to bow the knee before Jesus and give their lives to Christ.
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And would you just pray for that person?
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I will. At the end of the millennium, before our heavenly state or our eternal state begins,
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the most sobering and sombering event in all of history will take place, and that's called the Great White Throne Judgment.
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And that Great White Throne Judgment is triggered by the opening of a book and books,
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books in plural and a book. The book is the Book of Life.
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And when anybody says yes to Christ, their name is written in the Book of Life.
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Books, that's the Book of Deeds. That's everything that Max has ever done, everything that John has ever done.
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If your name is not written in the Book of Life, then the Book of Deeds, the Book of your works, is consulted.
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And you are judged according to what you have done.
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Now, if your name is written in the Book of Life, that book will never be opened and your accounts will never be seen,
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because you're not judged by what you do. You're judged by what Christ has done for you.
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And so if your name is not in the Book of Life, everything you've ever done will be announced.
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And then you will, Jesus will declare you guilty and you won't push back. You won't argue.
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I mean, the evidence is there. So what John is saying, what I'm saying today is make sure your name is written.
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In the Book of Life. And all you got to do is say yes to Jesus. When you say yes to Him, He says yes to you.
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I'm going to lead us in a prayer, very simple prayer, but it's a life changing prayer.
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Lord Jesus, I'm a sinner. Please forgive me. I call upon you as my Savior. I receive you as my friend.
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Change me, use me, forgive me in Jesus name. Amen.
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With all my heart, I believe that if you said yes to Jesus at that moment, your name is now written in the Book of Life.
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And that's the only book that matters. And so I welcome you to the family of God.
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We're going to enjoy the presence of God forever.
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Amen. Amen. Pastor Max Lucado, the author of What Happens Next? A Traveler's Guide Through the End of This Age.
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And I want everybody that if you prayed with Pastor Max just then put in the comments, amen.
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I receive that. My name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Put something in there so that we can we can connect with you.
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We can pray with you and we can celebrate with you. Max, thank you so much for joining us today here on Charisma.
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I really appreciate our time together. I'm the one who says thank you because you do such an amazing job each time.
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I hope we get to do it again.
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As our world seems to be crashing around us, so many people are wondering what happens next.
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And we as Christians know that we have the answers because it's already been written in the book.
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But the Bible is full of mysteries and we are called to search the scriptures to find the answers.
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And with us today is Max Lucado, the author of the brand new book, What Happens Next?
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And this is really a 101 Revelation End Times book.
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We're helping a lot of people understand what is happening next.
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So, Max, welcome to Charisma.
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Thank you. Thank you.
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It's really an honor to be with you.
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And yes, I was hoping that I could write a book that could be placed in the hand of someone who says,
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you know, I'd love to study about End Times, but the whole topic is just so overwhelming.
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And then there's so many different opinions.
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Would somebody help me distill it down to a form that I could understand?
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And I'm trying to speak to that need in this book.
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And in our world today, with everything that's going on, people are really asking these questions.
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I know whenever I was growing up, there was wars and rumors of wars and we would hear about different things
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that were happening in the Middle East.
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And that's when I first heard about Revelation.
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I was probably seven, eight years old listening to Dr. David Jeremiah on the radio.
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And I was scared.
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I was really scared because it was back in the 90s and we were going to the Middle East.
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And I was like, what is happening?
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I'm not going to be able to survive this.
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Help me to understand this.
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And so books like yours are super, super helpful to take the scare factor out of the End Times.
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What inspired you to write this book?
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A couple of things.
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One, I am just insatiably curious about what's about to happen to me personally.
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I'm moving up there.
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You know, I've got a lot more sand on the bottom of my hourglass than I do on the top.
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Thankfully, I'm in good health.
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I'm able to be productive and I'm able to do things.
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But I'm almost 70 and I know, you know, that my years are all of our years are numbered,
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but I can see the countdown.
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And I'm very excited to think about what I will see the moment I close my eyes on this version of my existence.
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I'm just curious.
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I catch myself, John, thinking about it two or three times a day.
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And it's a wonderful thought.
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It's an uplifting thought.
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And I've been like that for a good decade now.
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And so that led to me wanting to understand more.
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I'm curious about the future.
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And I'm concerned about the present.
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I feel like we're seeing things unfold that Scripture has forecasted.
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And I would imagine our great grandparents could never see the things, imagine seeing the things we're seeing today.
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For example, the regathering of the children of Israel to the nation of Israel or the surrounding of Israel by the enemies of Israel,
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or even some of the AI elements of our society that would allow the prophecies of the book of Revelation to be fulfilled
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with the mark of the beast or the managing of the currencies, things that I would imagine, again,
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my great grandparents or even grandparents would read that and say, I just can't envision that happening.
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Boy, I can. I could see it happening.
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And so those two things came together, John, curious about my own personal future and then concerned about the status of the world.
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And I began presenting these messages to our church in San Antonio, Texas, where I've served for many years now.
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And it really resonated, really resonated.
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I was surprised how fearful people are.
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And then I was also amazed how teaching on end times is evangelistic.
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We had many people come to Christ or come to faith because they're just wanting somebody to explain things to them.
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And when you lay it out clearly on a timeline or some type of sequential explanation, they resonate and they want that.
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And so it's a very evangelistic tool to talk about end times.
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Absolutely. And I know the as you read Revelation, there is a blessing that is that is a part of that.
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Great point. As we study it, as we read it, there is a blessing that God promises.
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And as you're reading it, you're like, how does this blessing actually fit with what we're reading here?
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But Revelation isn't the only book in the Bible that talks about the end.
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I mean, Jesus prophesied about things in the end and there's the in Daniel Ezekiel talks about the end as well.
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I mean, it's all throughout. If you're looking for it, the revelation is kind of really focuses in on what's going to happen at the end.
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But beyond the end is really, really powerful.
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And that's this millennium principle, this millennium kingdom.
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And I'd like to talk about that because this is something where there's a lot of debate about this.
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Is the millennial real? Is it not real? Is it before? Has it already happened? Is it going to happen?
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Help us understand this. Well, now that I've written this book, there'll be no more debate.
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I answer all the questions. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
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And by the way, you're spot on about that promise of a blessing to anybody who studies or reads Revelation.
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It's the only book in the Bible that comes with a blessing.
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And so may everybody who reads it be blessed.
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And I think one way that we are blessed in studying prophetic books is we come to an understanding of what is about to happen.
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You mentioned the millennium. Revelation, Chapter 20, dedicates six verses, no, eight verses,
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but makes six references to this thousand year reign of Christ.
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There are a variety of ways that passage is interpreted.
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But for the sake of simplicity, I think there's two buckets.
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One is that person who says, that's all symbolic language. We're living in the millennium right now.
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The other is the person who says, no, that's not symbolic.
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That's literal language. And that millennium is yet to come.
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And I find this really interesting because I've moved from one bucket to the other.
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I went to a seminary that taught what we call all millennialism or the more symbolic view.
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I never had a pastor who was a pre-millennial teacher.
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Every pastor I had growing up taught a more symbolic view of Scripture.
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And I myself, for the first maybe 10 years of my ministry, embraced that teaching.
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Now, this is one of those topics where we're going to have robust discussion.
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But I think you can make a better case for the fact that there is truly going to be a thousand years
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in which Christ will be crowned, in which Satan will be bound, and we will reign with Christ for those thousand years.
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And I'm genuinely excited about that. In the book, I really go into detail as to how I changed my mind.
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But a super 30-second summary would be that there's promises in the Bible that can only be fulfilled during a millennium.
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The oppression of the devil is not taking place right now. He's not been bound. He is alive and well.
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A more word-for-word interpretation of Scripture allows us to embrace those thousand years as literal years.
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I think it's important that of the early Church fathers, for the first 300 years, the Church was overwhelmingly pre-millennial.
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There were a few exceptions, but overwhelmingly, the early Church fathers, including one who studied with the Apostle John, spoke of the literal millennium.
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And then lastly, there's two resurrections described in the teaching of Revelation 20, one at the beginning, one at the end of the thousand-year reign.
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How can you have two resurrections if there is not a millennium to separate them? So those are my reasons.
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I do think it's a valid and important discussion, because the way you see the millennium will inform the way you see in times.
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It's kind of like a keystone, and you build around it.
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If there is going to be a millennium, then somehow the Church has to return to earth and be a part of the millennium.
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And then if there's going to be a millennium, Satan has returned at the end of it.
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And so when you begin piecing the sequence together, it comes together in a mosaic that seems to make exciting and wonderful sense.
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I hope I didn't cover too much too fast in that answer.
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No, I think we're going to go a little bit deeper into that, because you brought up something there at the end that I was hoping that you would.
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And that was the fact that the way that you view the millennium affects the way that you view the end times.
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And I want to take that even further. The way that you view the end times affects the way that you live today.
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Amen. So how is the different understandings of the end times, especially with the millennium, how does that affect our today?
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Well, I'm of the belief that if a person dies today, they go directly to paradise.
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And we can talk about paradise here in just a moment.
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But the next major event on the prophetic calendar is, in my estimation, the rapture,
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that God will rapture the Church and He will deliver us from the wrath that is to come.
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And the wrath that is to come is that period of tribulation.
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And then the tribulation is concluded by Christ returning to earth, and we will return with Him, and He'll set up His kingdom on earth.
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All of that makes sense to me. But if you take the millennium out of the sequence, out of the timeline,
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it seems like there's no answer to the questions of what do you do with the first Thessalonians, four of us meeting Christ in the clouds?
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Why do we have Revelation 19? We're returning with Christ. He's on the stallion. We're returning with Him.
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How did we get there? What do we do? What's the difference?
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Putting it all together, as some of my good friends do, and I'll say brothers and sisters in Christ do,
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it doesn't distinguish the events, separate the events, as it seems to me the New Testament writers inspired by the Holy Spirit want them to be separated.
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There is a clear differentiation between those events. And in my all-millennial days, I just kind of clustered them all together.
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Somehow we're going to go up into the sky, come back down. The thousand years is happening right now, but what about Satan being bound? He's not really bound now.
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I had little questions buzzing around inside my head, John, but I didn't deal with them.
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And when I began to try to answer them, I didn't like the answers.
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A more sequential, dispensational view makes better sense to me. Again, my apologies. These discussions are challenging because we're covering so much material in two or three minute soundbites.
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Right. Right. Well, let's talk about another soundbite issue, and that's the rapture, which is something that is not actually...
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That word is not actually in Scripture. It is a word that we use to describe the concept of the saints being taken up.
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And Jesus talked about it, that one would be taken and one would be left. And when he was with his disciples on the earth, and we see in Revelation, there's different principles and stuff for that.
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But help us understand about the rapture.
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I think the rapture is such an exciting event to which we can look.
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I have been surprised how many people said, you know, I grew up being afraid of the rapture.
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I was just afraid of it. I was afraid that I came home from school one day and mom and dad were gone.
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I thought I'd been left behind. And so I like to be many, many times.
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I'd wake up from a nap or something and then nobody's there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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And so may the Lord comfort us all. May the Lord comfort us all.
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Remember what he said in John 14, do not let your hearts be troubled.
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So don't let your heart be troubled over this promise. There's a purpose for the rapture.
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You're exactly right. The word rapture is a word that emerged out of a translation of the Greek translation of Jerome.
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When he translated the Bible into Latin, that resulted in a word that we now use as rapture. First Thessalonians chapter four, the Greek verb there is har pod.
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So it means to be snatched up, to be taken away.
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And this moment is an event in which we will be taken up into the clouds to meet Christ in the air.
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It's different than Revelation 19 when we return with Christ and Christ puts his feet on Mount of Olives.
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Lord, let that day come soon. But those are two separate events.
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Now, here's the reason that I think the rapture, we should look forward to it with joy.
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On 9 11, I raptured my daughters. We saw the terrible things unfolding on the television screen, my wife and I did.
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And I turned to her and she looked at me and I said, you're thinking what I'm thinking.
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And she went to one school and got two of our daughters. I went to another school and got the third daughter.
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We raptured them. We snatched them because we didn't know what was about to happen.
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But whatever it was, we wanted them to be with us.
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It seems the best interpretation of these scriptures to me is that Christ will rapture his church to deliver us from a coming wrath.
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And that wrath is the tribulation.
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And the rapture is when he will come and rescue the church, take us into paradise with him.
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And we will enjoy conscious fellowship with him.
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We will be recognized by Christ, rewarded by Christ, wedded to Christ.
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And while that's happening, that's when the tribulation will break out on earth.
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People will have no explanation for all those millions, maybe a billion Christians who have disappeared and they'll conjure up some kind of explanation.
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It'll open the doors at the stage for the Antichrist, some demonic presence of a person of great persuasion or rhetorical skill.
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And he will calm everything down. And he's the one who will negotiate that peace treaty that Daniel speaks about.
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And midway through that peace treaty, he'll break it. And that's when really all hell will break loose.
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And so the rapture, I believe, John, rescues us prior to that.
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And I'll have two more points and I'll be done. Now, point number one, Jesus compared that moment to the days of Noah.
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Point number two, he compared that moment to the days of Lot.
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When you look at the days of Noah, Noah was rescued prior to the flood and Lot was well, he never felt any brimstone that I can tell upon him.
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They were rescued prior to that in like manner, I believe, will be rescued prior to that.
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Again, good brothers and sisters have already written me having read my book and said, no, no, Max, we're going to go through that tribulation.
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Well, I'll pray for you. You pray for me. If we end up going through it, I'll depend on you.
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If we end up not going through it, I'll celebrate with you. I don't. I just don't think we will.
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I believe we'll be rescued prior to the tribulation. What are your thoughts?
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Well, that is my hope for sure, because I personally don't want to go through the tribulation that we read about.
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But we do know that there will be trials and tribulations that we go through as believers.
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They just might not be the tribulation that we're talking about here.
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And so, you know, just because we believe in Jesus doesn't mean that our life is going to be all PG Keene all the time.
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But he promises that he will be with us and he will never forsake us. And that's a that's a promise that we can really hold on to.
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So you mentioned the Antichrist. So if Jesus, the Christ, is never going to leave us or forsake us, the Antichrist is well, the opposite of that.
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He's going to forsake. He will leave. He will abandon. He will manipulate and all of these things.
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Do you think that the Antichrist is alive today? I think that a candidate for the Antichrist is alive in each and every generation.
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And here's my reasoning on that. Satan is not omniscient. He cannot see the future.
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And he's waiting on the rapture for the before the tribulation will begin.
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And second Thessalonians talks about the restrainer being removed. And that's a very robust scripture as well.
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It seems to me that the word restrainer there is referring to the influence of the Holy Spirit through the church, the salt and light.
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So imagine how chaotic and rotten the world will get when all the Christians are gone.
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You know, I mean, we're not perfect, but you remove God fearing, taxpaying, hardworking, good neighbors.
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You just evacuate them from the earth. The earth is going to spin into moral chaos very, very quickly.
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Well, that opens the door and sets the stage for the Antichrist.
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But Satan does not know when the Antichrist, when the rapture is going to happen.
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So in each generation, he likely has a candidate. You remember how he entered Judas so that Judas would betray Christ.
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The scripture says Satan entered Judas. Right.
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In a like manner, I think Satan will enter the body of somebody who's charismatic, who's charming, who's a great oratorical skills, who's a great peacemaker.
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But they will be the proxy. They'll be the tool of the devil.
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So in most, so I believe there is a candidate alive and well on the planet today.
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Whether or not that person will be the Antichrist, I don't know. I don't know.
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So you think there's a candidate for the Antichrist at every generation because the devil doesn't know when it's time to pull the trigger.
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Exactly. You could have said it better. The Lord will lead his sheep into the fold.
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And at that point, that'll be an open door for Satan to do his work.
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There is quite a bit of discussion. Will the rapture trigger the tribulation? Will the tribulation occur immediately after the rapture?
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It seems to me that there's no real clear answer to that. It could be a matter of months, maybe years, but I don't think it'll be long.
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I don't think it'll be long.
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If we're called to occupy until he comes and then he comes, we're no longer occupying after that point.
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Therefore, there's nothing holding back the wickedness and the craziness that's going to be out there from the devil.
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With all of these things that we're seeing in our headlines right now and with the war in Israel that has been going on for a year almost,
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Israel's in the headlines and Israel is really the centerpiece of Revelation, the centerpiece of the end times.
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I think in our Western theology and our Western mentality, we kind of think of America as the center of the world.
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But that's not how the Bible describes it. Two questions. First, where do you think America is in the end times?
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That's always a fun discussion there. But looking at Israel, what do we need to be looking out for in that region of the world?
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Is Israel not the most fascinating topic? I'm like you, I think.
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Surely, the United States is in the center of the story, but we're not. We're just one of many nations.
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I think we're a blessed nation. I'm honored to have spent my life, most of it, in the United States.
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But the main player is Israel. God made promises to Abraham before he was Abraham to bless the seed and the soil of Abraham.
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And boy, has he not kept those promises. He blessed the seed. I mean, because of the Jews, we have the prophets, we have Psalms,
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we have the Bible, we have the church. Most of all, we have Jesus Christ.
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He has blessed the world and continues to bless the world through the seed of Abraham, the Jewish people.
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And he has also promised soil, soil to Israel. And I think this is really an important discussion when it comes to end times.
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What happened in May of 1948? I believe that my great-great grandparents are my great-grandparents, and I never knew them.
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I don't know if they were Bible scholars or students or not. But had they pursued a better understanding of Scripture,
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probably would have read those prophecies about Israel returning or being regathered in a day to their homeland.
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They probably would have read those and said, now that'll never happen. That'll never happen. I mean, the Jews are scattered all over the world.
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But we saw, we didn't see it. But there was a miracle that took place on May 8, 1948, when President Truman signed into effect the right for the Jews to return to Israel.
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To me, I agree with those teachers of prophecy who call that a super sign. What happened that day set the stage for the rest of history.
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So God has always had a place for Israel. He has always had. Now, why? Why? Is there something special about Israel?
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Nope. Nothing, not anything about Israel. In fact, Moses told the Israelites, it's not because you're big or strong, it's because God chose to have grace upon you or mercy upon you.
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And I can relate to that. God has used me, an old converted drunk, not because of anything that I have or any intellect I bring or any power that I might possess.
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He does so because of grace. So God in his sovereign grace has chosen to use Israel. Now, real quickly, I really think, I really think a lasting contribution of Israel,
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certainly say the greatest, the greatest is Jesus Christ. But a lasting contribution will happen during the tribulation. And when I read that list of 12,000 Jews, each from a different tribe of Israel,
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and then the next passage that declares that a multitude, too great to count from every tribe and nation is proclaiming Christ.
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And I realized, oh, that's the greatest revival in the history of the world. And it will happen because these Jewish evangelists go out sealed by Christ, carrying the gospel of Christ.
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This is part of the fulfillment of God's covenant that he would bless the world through the children of Israel.
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So as the church age comes to an end at the rapture, the next stage, the age of the tribulation, while horrible, while terrible, will witness a revival unlike any we've ever seen.
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And it will come because of the vast number of 144,000 Jews converting to Christ.
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Wow. You know, one of the things that you mentioned there was that this the promise of soil and the the promised land that we know of as Israel.
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Well, as we look at the promises of God with this, it's not just from the river to the sea, which is actually what the Palestinians are saying from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.
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Well, they're they're willfully on there. It's far greater what what God has promised Israel, but they've never fully, fully realized the boundaries that God has promised.
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Is that the millennial kingdom? What are your thoughts on this?
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You're you being you says you ask the best questions. I love these questions. OK, so I've wrestled with that one. Here's my answer.
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For certain in the millennial kingdom, Israel will have the full extent of the land promised to them for certain.
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I believe that perhaps something will happen even before the rapture in which the boundaries of Israel will be expanded.
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I'm reading still. I'm praying still. I'm asking people, do you have a sense for an answer to that right now?
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I'm very comfortable saying, yeah, that'll for sure happen in the millennial kingdom.
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Will it happen before the rapture? Maybe you have the answer to that one, John.
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I don't have the answer for that one. I'm waiting and seeing.
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Yes, you know, Jesus told his disciples to come and see.
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And so, you know, the disciples were told to come and see.
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And so that's that's kind of how I'm approaching this.
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But I'm like thinking God promised this. His word will not go forth empty or void.
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We know it says in Isaiah fifty five that it will go out and accomplish everything that it has that it has been prophesied,
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everything that is said, and it will not return empty or void.
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So these things that we just were talking about, we can know without a shadow of a doubt that they will happen.
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We just don't understand exactly how it will unfold and in the timing.
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But we know that we can look back and say, oh, my gosh, God said this.
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He fulfilled his word just as he said, isn't he great because that drives us to to worship him and glory and glorify him.
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One of the things that that I've that I've thought about for a long time is in heaven, we are going to be worshiping God forever.
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Tell me about what as you were studying this and you were writing this,
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what revelations of the revelation of worship has come to your heart?
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Well, can you imagine the moment that we finally.
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It's as if we know the scripture in Revelation 21, behold, I make all things new, make all things.
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I wonder if Jesus is going to say that, you know, if we'll hear those words, I am making all things new.
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He just declares it and everything is suddenly new.
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The new universe, new earth, I know by then we'll already have glorified bodies.
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Those will come at the rapture.
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But perhaps there's even a new element to our bodies that will come to us.
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But what we will most certainly have is the desire to offer endless worship to our Lord and Savior.
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With with tongues that will never grow weary, with minds that have no questions,
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with spirits that have no guilt, with an understanding that has no doubts,
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we will finally be able to say, you're my king, I love you.
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And we will worship him. We will willingly bow down and worship him.
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And I do get that question quite often from people, but Max, you mean to tell me that heaven is an endless worship service?
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Won't I get bored?
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And my answer to them is quickly, no, you won't be the same you in heaven.
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You won't be the same. The reason we get bored is because our minds get tired.
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We lose attention. We don't have long attention spans.
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In heaven, there's a version of you that's waiting to happen in which you'll never be tired.
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And you'll always be amazed. So don't filter our eternal state through our earthly state.
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We have this tendency to take the physics of this life and interpret the reality of the next life through the physics of this one.
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We'll be entirely different. We'll be entirely different.
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And so the worship will be perfect. It will be unending and it will fill everything.
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It will just fill everything because there will be no Satan.
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He'll be thrown into the bottomless pit, which is another phrase that I love.
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Bottomless pit. I've seen a lot of pits, but I've never seen a bottomless pit.
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So Satan is going to be falling and flailing throughout eternity.
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He won't even be around. He'll be out of the picture.
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And we'll be able to worship with the angels, with the saints that have gone before.
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You know, the Bible says every knee shall bow, every knee shall bow.
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And so that includes the demons.
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That includes those who have reacted against Christ before they are cast away from Christ forever.
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Even they, you know, the most vile, desperate ruler in all of history will bow.
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He will bow. The demons will bow. There'll be a worship service in Hades.
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They'll bow. Everybody will bow.
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And those of us who are bowing before him now will gladly bow and will be so full of joy.
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Those others will be full of dread because they knew they missed it.
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They missed it. But those of us who are bowing before him now will bow before him then and will gladly worship him forever.
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You know, Max, as we're wrapping up here, you just made mention of those that will bow
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because they are in love with Jesus and those that will bow because they're in fear of Jesus.
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And I want to ask you, we've been talking about Revelation, we've been talking about the end times,
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and there is a blessing for those who hear it, who study it.
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But there is a big blessing for those who bow their knee to Jesus in this life before that end.
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I don't want to miss this opportunity to ask you to speak to somebody who needs to bow the knee before Jesus and give their lives to Christ.
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And would you just pray for that person?
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I will. At the end of the millennium, before our heavenly state or our eternal state begins,
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the most sobering and sombering event in all of history will take place, and that's called the Great White Throne Judgment.
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And that Great White Throne Judgment is triggered by the opening of a book and books,
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books in plural and a book. The book is the Book of Life.
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And when anybody says yes to Christ, their name is written in the Book of Life.
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Books, that's the Book of Deeds. That's everything that Max has ever done, everything that John has ever done.
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If your name is not written in the Book of Life, then the Book of Deeds, the Book of your works, is consulted.
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And you are judged according to what you have done.
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Now, if your name is written in the Book of Life, that book will never be opened and your accounts will never be seen,
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because you're not judged by what you do. You're judged by what Christ has done for you.
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And so if your name is not in the Book of Life, everything you've ever done will be announced.
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And then you will, Jesus will declare you guilty and you won't push back. You won't argue.
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I mean, the evidence is there. So what John is saying, what I'm saying today is make sure your name is written.
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In the Book of Life. And all you got to do is say yes to Jesus. When you say yes to Him, He says yes to you.
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I'm going to lead us in a prayer, very simple prayer, but it's a life changing prayer.
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Lord Jesus, I'm a sinner. Please forgive me. I call upon you as my Savior. I receive you as my friend.
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Change me, use me, forgive me in Jesus name. Amen.
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With all my heart, I believe that if you said yes to Jesus at that moment, your name is now written in the Book of Life.
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And that's the only book that matters. And so I welcome you to the family of God.
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We're going to enjoy the presence of God forever.
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Amen. Amen. Pastor Max Lucado, the author of What Happens Next? A Traveler's Guide Through the End of This Age.
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And I want everybody that if you prayed with Pastor Max just then put in the comments, amen.
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I receive that. My name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Put something in there so that we can we can connect with you.
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We can pray with you and we can celebrate with you. Max, thank you so much for joining us today here on Charisma.
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I really appreciate our time together. I'm the one who says thank you because you do such an amazing job each time.
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I hope we get to do it again.
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