Understanding Catholics: A Respectful Conversation with Mike Shreve

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Pastor Mike Shreve, it's great to have you back here

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on Charisma News.

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And this time we're gonna be talking about your book,

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Beliefs of the Catholic Church.

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And we are talking about this from a place

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where we love the Catholic Church.

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We love Catholic people.

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My parents both grew up Catholic.

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My grandparents were Catholic.

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I have a lot of respect and admiration for their devotion.

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But there's definitely some things that I,

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as I read the Bible, I don't agree with,

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but I still wanna show love and respect.

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And so I think this conversation and you sharing your life

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is gonna help a lot of people be able to connect

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to our Catholic brothers and sisters.

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And I have nothing but warm memories.

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My grandmother was an extremely fervent Catholic

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who prayed the rosary every day.

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And her last words to my father were,

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Andy, I'll rise with Jesus.

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I believe she had a personal relationship with the Lord

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and that she will be in the resurrection, praise God.

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That was her final confession.

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And I was an ultra boy.

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I could show you pictures of me back in my first communion

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or in my ultra boy cassock.

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And I served under priests that were real role models

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of Christ-like character, gentle, meek, humble, God-loving,

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God-fearing men.

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And so again, I have only warm memories.

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They were a positive influence in my life.

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I went to parochial school up until middle school

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and the nuns were wonderful.

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A few of them were a little fierce to deal with,

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but I don't blame them with a hundred kids in the classroom.

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They'd have to be pretty strong to manage all of us.

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But once again, they kept me secluded

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from a lot of the rampant evil

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that's in the public school system.

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And so I'm very thankful.

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But like you, I have since searched out the Bible myself,

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which a lot of Catholics do not do.

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They do not read the Bible for themselves.

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They trust in the Catechism.

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And once I began reading the Bible,

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I saw this disparity between true biblical,

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authentic Christianity and what I'd been taught

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as a Catholic.

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And so I felt like this book needed to be written

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because a lot of times I've seen presentation

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by Protestants concerning Catholicism

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that I thought was really harsh and insensitive

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because they didn't really understand it

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from a Catholic perspective.

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But I'm coming from that perspective.

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I was-

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I agree with you.

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I feel like there's been a lot of Catholic bashing

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and that's not what you're doing.

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It's not what I wanna do.

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Absolutely not.

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The Catholics that I have in my life absolutely love Jesus,

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but there's definitely some other things

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that are maybe non-essentials, I don't know,

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that we disagree about.

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And so I'd love to hear more

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of what you have to say with this.

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Well, I think a good place to start

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is the definition of the church.

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And in the book, I might read a quote

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from the first chapter, the first chapter deals

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with the whole idea of what is the true church.

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And if you go back in Catholic doctrine

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in their ecumenical councils and so forth,

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you'll find out that over and over they teach

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that the Catholic church is the only true church.

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And it's one point, incidentally,

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it's 1.3 billion members strong.

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So that's the largest segment of Christianity in the world.

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There's about 2.6 billion people.

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And I think it would help to see

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that according to my insight now,

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I believe there's two aspects

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to what people call the church.

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There's something called the professing church,

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which I was a part of growing up,

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but I did not know Jesus.

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I had no personal relationship with God,

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but I was part of the professing church.

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And that's made up of all those who profess faith

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in the historical validity of the existence of Jesus

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and what he accomplished,

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his death for the sins of humanity,

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his burial, his resurrection, his ascension.

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I believed in all of that.

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I was taught all of that, but I did not know him.

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And yet in John chapter 17, Jesus said,

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this is eternal life that they might know you,

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the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

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He didn't say know about you, God.

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He said, this is eternal life that they might know you.

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And that was the missing element.

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And it was a very important missing element in my life.

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Then at the nucleus, at the core of the professing church

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is a much smaller group I call the possessing church.

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And that's made up of people of many denomination,

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Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Episcopals, et cetera,

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who have had a genuine, authentic, heartfelt encounter

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that came to them by making Jesus Lord of their lives,

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by surrendering to him and inviting him into their heart.

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Jesus said, I stand at the door and knock.

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And if any man hear my voice,

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I will open the door and come into him.

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And that's exactly what he wants to do.

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And that's when I was spiritually regenerated.

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I was born again at the age of 19.

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I was not born again

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when the Catholic church says you're born again.

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And that's that infant baptism.

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And that might be a good subject to tackle next.

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Yeah, let's talk about that.

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This whole concept of infant baptism versus baptism

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when you can make the confession yourself.

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I know that when we look at baptism in the Bible,

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actually this morning I was just reading in Mark

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where Jesus went to John the Baptist and was baptized.

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And you look and see, well, we know that Jesus was

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in his thirties whenever this happened

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and began his public ministry right after that.

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So he was not an infant, but when he was at eight days old,

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we know that he went to the temple

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and he was really circumcised.

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And that's what happened at that point

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because that's historically what happens

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on the eighth day there.

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But what is, where did this infant baptism come from?

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And what is it now today?

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Well, first of all, let me say that the Catholic church

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teaches that five things happen.

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Five definite things happen during infant baptism.

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Number one, that child is born again.

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Number two, the spirit of God enters that child.

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Number three, that child receives the gift of eternal life.

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Number four, that child becomes a member of the church.

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And number five, original sin is canceled and dismissed

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and purged from that child.

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So five supernatural things are supposed to take place

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during sprinkling that never take place.

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And so tragically, what happens is you have

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unregenerated infants that grow up

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to be unregenerated teenagers that lose faith

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in Christianity because they never had

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a genuine encounter with God,

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or unregenerated adults that think they've received

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this experience possibly of being born again,

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and yet they haven't done it the biblical way

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and haven't had a real encounter with Jesus quite often.

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Quite often that's the case, more often than not.

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And so that's the tragedy of the matter.

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Infant baptism strangely was not originally taught

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in the church.

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It was not originally taught among the disciples at all.

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Now Catholics will cite, I think it's five instances,

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four or five instances where it talks about

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a whole household being baptized.

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Like Cornelius that wanted to be saved

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after Paul and Silas sang at the midnight hour

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and the jail cell doors blew open.

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Well, it's that he and his household were baptized.

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And they use those descriptions

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that happened in the book of Acts

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about four or five times to try and prove

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that infant baptism is true.

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But in not one of those circumstances

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was it mentioned that infants were involved.

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A household could have been adults or older children

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that had an awareness of what they were doing

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because the proper order is repent and be baptized.

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And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

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Well, only people old enough to know

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the concept of repentance therefore can be baptized.

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And I think one of the strongest examples

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is when Philip preached to the Ethiopian eunuch.

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It's a great story in the book of Acts

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where he joined himself to the chariot

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of this Ethiopian eunuch and he just happened to be,

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it was a God encounter, a God set up.

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He just happened to be reading Isaiah 53 at the time.

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And he said, what's this talking about?

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And Philip explained it to him.

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And then the Ethiopian eunuch said, well, here is water.

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They were apparently parked near a body of water.

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He said, what does hinder me?

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Can I be baptized?

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And Philip said, and this is key, he said,

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if you believe with all your heart, you can be baptized.

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And so he made that a prerequisite for baptism.

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An infant baby cannot believe with all of his or her heart.

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It's got to be later on in life.

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Some people call it the age of accountability,

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which is not necessarily a scriptural term or idea,

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but at least a point where a child can understand

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and comprehend the difference between good and evil

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and what's actually happening.

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Yeah, I know that for me, I prayed the prayer

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to receive Jesus when I was four years old.

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And that is a moment that I'll never forget.

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I can take you to that space at my parents' house.

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And my mother, she prayed with me

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and I knew what was happening.

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I can remember what happened earlier in the day

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that made me want to pray to receive Jesus.

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And then I remember later as a separate occasion,

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whenever I got baptized at my pastor's pool

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and then got filled with the Spirit as well,

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filled the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

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And those are distinct moments

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that I was a part of making that decision.

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I was the integral part.

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If I wasn't making the decision,

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none of those things would have happened.

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And I'm so grateful for those memories.

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And I know that an infant will not be able

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to remember those memories, even if they could,

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if they could make that decision.

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But it's something that we need to do.

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Dedicating babies is one thing,

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but baptism is a completely different thing.

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Right, and that's a very important thing, very important.

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And I believe another really important issue

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is the whole idea of an exclusive priesthood.

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Because in Catholicism, only a priest can administer baptism,

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only a priest can serve communion,

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only a priest or a bishop can preside,

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and usually it's a bishop preside over confirmation,

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which is the sacrament where supposedly you're filled with,

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or sealed by the Holy Spirit.

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And only a priest can administer extreme unction

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or the final anointing,

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which a person receives just prior to death.

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And so it makes a mediatorial priesthood a necessity

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from birth to death.

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And that ties you to the church

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and makes it a very fearful thing

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for you to even think about leaving

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because you would cut off your source of forgiveness.

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Because according to Catholic doctrine,

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only a priest can forgive mortal sin

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or sin that leads to death.

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And so if you don't go to confession

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and you have mortal sin in your life,

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you're assigning yourself to an eternal hell.

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So no wonder these are very, very important issues.

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And so what does the Bible have to say about it?

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The scripture actually teaches

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that all believers are priests.

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In the Old Testament, they did have an exclusive priesthood,

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Aaron and his sons were the priests.

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And you had to go to those priests

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in order to be reconciled back to God

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through the proper sacrifices being offered

263
00:13:09,820 --> 00:13:11,540
at the Tabernacle of Moses,

264
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later on the Temple of Solomon and so forth.

265
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But that did not overflow into the New Testament

266
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because Jesus is our great high priest.

267
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Now we have boldness to enter the holiest.

268
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See, in the Old Testament,

269
00:13:26,060 --> 00:13:28,740
only the high priest could go into the holy of holies.

270
00:13:28,740 --> 00:13:31,300
But now all believers can have boldness

271
00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:34,920
to enter the holiness, whether the forerunner has,

272
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,100
for us, has already entered.

273
00:13:37,100 --> 00:13:38,980
And that's talking about Jesus,

274
00:13:38,980 --> 00:13:41,020
who's made a high priest forever.

275
00:13:41,020 --> 00:13:44,540
So we don't have to have a mediatorial priesthood

276
00:13:44,540 --> 00:13:45,600
to go through.

277
00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,460
We go to God directly to be forgiven of our sins.

278
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And we, of course, prepare our hearts

279
00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:54,980
for departure from this world

280
00:13:54,980 --> 00:13:57,420
between us and the Lord Jesus Christ

281
00:13:57,420 --> 00:13:59,240
as a personal relationship with him.

282
00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:03,260
I don't have to have someone performing a ritual over me

283
00:14:03,260 --> 00:14:05,540
before I pass from this world.

284
00:14:05,540 --> 00:14:10,180
And 1 Peter 2.5 says all believers are a holy priesthood.

285
00:14:10,180 --> 00:14:13,500
1 Peter 2.9 says all believers are a royal priesthood.

286
00:14:13,500 --> 00:14:16,960
Now, to be fair, Catholic doctrine does teach

287
00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,260
that there's two classes of priests.

288
00:14:19,260 --> 00:14:21,940
And that there's a ministerial priesthood,

289
00:14:21,940 --> 00:14:24,860
and that there is a lesser level of priesthood

290
00:14:24,860 --> 00:14:26,980
assigned to all believers.

291
00:14:26,980 --> 00:14:31,820
But still, it's not the same as the biblical interpretation

292
00:14:31,820 --> 00:14:33,100
of what a priest is.

293
00:14:33,100 --> 00:14:33,940
Yeah.

294
00:14:33,940 --> 00:14:34,860
And as you were talking about

295
00:14:34,860 --> 00:14:37,500
the whole mediator concept there,

296
00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:41,260
I'm reminded of 1 Timothy 2.5, where it says,

297
00:14:41,260 --> 00:14:43,660
"'For there is one God and one mediator

298
00:14:43,660 --> 00:14:46,020
"'who can reconcile God and humanity,

299
00:14:46,020 --> 00:14:47,980
"'the man Christ Jesus.'"

300
00:14:47,980 --> 00:14:52,980
And so that is one thing that has always helped me,

301
00:14:53,140 --> 00:14:55,580
knowing that Jesus is the one that we pray to.

302
00:14:57,020 --> 00:14:57,860
He's our mediator.

303
00:14:57,860 --> 00:15:00,020
He's the one that's taking our intercession

304
00:15:00,020 --> 00:15:01,580
to God the Father.

305
00:15:01,580 --> 00:15:04,620
And it is not the saints, it's not Mary.

306
00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:09,380
But that's one of the things where there's a big difference

307
00:15:09,380 --> 00:15:13,420
is sainthood and Mary, and praying to people that,

308
00:15:13,420 --> 00:15:15,220
or praying to saints that aren't Jesus.

309
00:15:15,220 --> 00:15:19,020
And what actually is the sainthood, actually?

310
00:15:19,020 --> 00:15:20,580
Let's talk about that for a little bit.

311
00:15:20,580 --> 00:15:22,340
I think that's an important subject.

312
00:15:22,340 --> 00:15:25,740
And incidentally, a lot of people don't understand

313
00:15:25,740 --> 00:15:29,140
that Catholicism has evolved through the centuries.

314
00:15:29,140 --> 00:15:32,060
And all of the beliefs that are now

315
00:15:32,060 --> 00:15:35,100
comprising this worldview called Catholicism

316
00:15:35,100 --> 00:15:39,340
have not always been a part of that organization.

317
00:15:39,340 --> 00:15:41,780
For instance, just to give you one quick example

318
00:15:41,780 --> 00:15:46,540
before I address sainthood, for instance,

319
00:15:46,540 --> 00:15:49,460
the Immaculate Conception of Mary

320
00:15:49,460 --> 00:15:50,940
is a major Catholic doctrine.

321
00:15:50,940 --> 00:15:54,620
The belief that just like Jesus was conceived without sin,

322
00:15:54,620 --> 00:15:57,140
so Mary was conceived without sin.

323
00:15:57,140 --> 00:16:00,820
Unknown to most people, that became a Catholic belief

324
00:16:00,820 --> 00:16:05,820
ratified by the church in 1854.

325
00:16:05,900 --> 00:16:09,740
So just about, what, less than 150 years ago.

326
00:16:09,740 --> 00:16:14,740
And then in 1950, through a papal decree

327
00:16:15,220 --> 00:16:17,620
that was considered infallible,

328
00:16:17,620 --> 00:16:21,540
the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary was introduced,

329
00:16:21,540 --> 00:16:24,740
which is the belief that Mary was assumed up into heaven,

330
00:16:24,740 --> 00:16:27,740
similar to Enoch or Elijah,

331
00:16:27,740 --> 00:16:29,900
that she was assumed up to heaven.

332
00:16:29,900 --> 00:16:34,780
And then in 1954, that's less than a century ago,

333
00:16:34,780 --> 00:16:37,420
she was declared to be the queen of heaven.

334
00:16:37,420 --> 00:16:40,380
And so these are more recent doctrines.

335
00:16:40,380 --> 00:16:43,340
And if anyone begins to search out,

336
00:16:43,340 --> 00:16:45,980
in fact, I'm about to put an article on my website.

337
00:16:45,980 --> 00:16:50,780
My website is called to catholicswithlove.org.

338
00:16:50,780 --> 00:16:52,980
And I'm about to put an article,

339
00:16:52,980 --> 00:16:54,900
probably in the next week or two,

340
00:16:54,900 --> 00:16:58,420
on the evolution of Catholic beliefs

341
00:16:58,420 --> 00:17:01,700
and how many of them happened hundreds of years,

342
00:17:01,700 --> 00:17:04,260
even a thousand or more years

343
00:17:04,260 --> 00:17:06,380
after the coming of Jesus to this earth.

344
00:17:06,380 --> 00:17:08,180
But talking about sainthood,

345
00:17:09,860 --> 00:17:11,580
the scripture is very clear

346
00:17:11,580 --> 00:17:14,580
in addressing all believers as saints.

347
00:17:14,580 --> 00:17:18,260
If you go to the introduction of many of the epistles,

348
00:17:18,260 --> 00:17:21,220
Paul would write to the saints which are at Ephesus,

349
00:17:21,220 --> 00:17:23,540
to the saints which are at Philippi,

350
00:17:23,540 --> 00:17:26,580
to the saints which are at Corinth.

351
00:17:26,580 --> 00:17:29,580
So all believers were referred to that way.

352
00:17:29,580 --> 00:17:33,220
And so we need to understand what a saint is.

353
00:17:33,220 --> 00:17:37,820
A saint is a person who has been sanctified.

354
00:17:37,820 --> 00:17:40,020
And there's a triune meaning to that.

355
00:17:40,020 --> 00:17:42,740
To be sanctified means, number one,

356
00:17:42,740 --> 00:17:45,340
to be cleansed from the defilement of sin.

357
00:17:45,340 --> 00:17:48,980
Number two, to be made holy in the sight of God.

358
00:17:48,980 --> 00:17:53,100
And number three, to be sanctified means

359
00:17:53,100 --> 00:17:56,540
to be set apart for God's purposes.

360
00:17:56,540 --> 00:17:59,780
And that happens at a true salvation experience.

361
00:17:59,780 --> 00:18:02,980
You're cleansed from your sin by the blood of Jesus.

362
00:18:02,980 --> 00:18:06,140
You are made holy because the Bible said the new man,

363
00:18:06,140 --> 00:18:09,300
the inward man is created in righteousness

364
00:18:09,300 --> 00:18:10,980
and true holiness.

365
00:18:10,980 --> 00:18:13,740
You are rendered sinless by the power of the blood

366
00:18:13,740 --> 00:18:15,460
of Jesus flowing through you.

367
00:18:15,460 --> 00:18:19,100
And if you've truly surrendered to the lordship of Jesus,

368
00:18:19,100 --> 00:18:22,380
you are set apart for God's divine purpose in your life.

369
00:18:22,380 --> 00:18:25,940
Bam, you become a saint at that point.

370
00:18:25,940 --> 00:18:30,540
And there was no concept of an exclusive group

371
00:18:30,540 --> 00:18:32,780
of canonized saints.

372
00:18:32,780 --> 00:18:35,380
The first thousand years of the church,

373
00:18:35,380 --> 00:18:37,460
that happened much later on.

374
00:18:38,660 --> 00:18:41,500
When I think it was in the 900s,

375
00:18:41,500 --> 00:18:44,300
when the first saint was canonized.

376
00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:47,660
And then eventually there evolved this concept

377
00:18:47,660 --> 00:18:49,460
of being able to pray to the saints

378
00:18:49,460 --> 00:18:51,500
to intervene in our behalf.

379
00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:55,500
But to believe that, well,

380
00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:58,420
I should mention the canonization process.

381
00:18:58,420 --> 00:19:00,180
In order to be a canonized saint,

382
00:19:00,180 --> 00:19:02,980
there has to be two miracles happen

383
00:19:02,980 --> 00:19:07,500
by someone appealing to that saint in prayer.

384
00:19:07,500 --> 00:19:11,620
And that person has to have a recognized life

385
00:19:11,620 --> 00:19:14,420
of consecration, of course, and dedication.

386
00:19:14,420 --> 00:19:18,140
But there has to be evidence supplied

387
00:19:18,140 --> 00:19:21,260
that that person has some kind of power

388
00:19:21,260 --> 00:19:25,540
in being approached after death for a miracle to be wrought.

389
00:19:25,540 --> 00:19:29,980
Well, God in Deuteronomy 18, for instance,

390
00:19:29,980 --> 00:19:34,980
he very explicitly prohibited anyone

391
00:19:35,100 --> 00:19:36,580
trying to contact the dead.

392
00:19:36,580 --> 00:19:41,580
And we have the account of Saul trying to contact Samuel

393
00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:45,260
and how that even hastened his death

394
00:19:45,260 --> 00:19:50,260
because he disobeyed God in going to a medium.

395
00:19:50,260 --> 00:19:53,780
And I believe the whole Catholic concept

396
00:19:53,780 --> 00:19:57,780
of praying to the saints is a transgression

397
00:19:57,780 --> 00:20:00,860
against God's prohibiting of that practice.

398
00:20:00,860 --> 00:20:04,580
Also, I believe not only is it theologically incorrect,

399
00:20:04,580 --> 00:20:09,580
it's logically absurd because take, for instance,

400
00:20:10,860 --> 00:20:15,860
if there's out of the church, maybe 25%

401
00:20:16,380 --> 00:20:20,740
of 1.3 billion Catholics in the world,

402
00:20:20,740 --> 00:20:23,940
if a quarter of a billion Catholics in one day

403
00:20:23,940 --> 00:20:26,180
pray to Saint Peter.

404
00:20:26,180 --> 00:20:28,700
Saint Peter has got to be aware

405
00:20:28,700 --> 00:20:32,660
of 250 million conversations at once,

406
00:20:32,660 --> 00:20:34,220
or a little over that.

407
00:20:34,220 --> 00:20:35,820
And he's got to be personally present

408
00:20:35,820 --> 00:20:37,860
in every one of those person's lives.

409
00:20:37,860 --> 00:20:42,020
Now I do well to stay focused on one conversation

410
00:20:42,020 --> 00:20:44,300
with one person at one time.

411
00:20:44,300 --> 00:20:47,900
Can you imagine being hit with 250 million requests

412
00:20:47,900 --> 00:20:48,740
in one day?

413
00:20:48,740 --> 00:20:50,180
I cannot, I cannot.

414
00:20:50,180 --> 00:20:52,300
You break that down mathematically

415
00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:55,260
into minutes and seconds, and he's got thousands

416
00:20:55,260 --> 00:20:58,700
of people coming to him every second by second.

417
00:20:58,700 --> 00:21:02,100
And to process that, he'd have to have omniscience

418
00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:06,060
and omnipresence, which are attributes only God has.

419
00:21:06,060 --> 00:21:10,380
And to attribute that ability to Mary or to the saints

420
00:21:10,380 --> 00:21:14,420
is to lift them up to the level of the Godhead.

421
00:21:14,420 --> 00:21:18,020
And I believe that's impossibility.

422
00:21:18,020 --> 00:21:21,180
And when you look at it just logically,

423
00:21:21,180 --> 00:21:22,660
it doesn't make any sense at all.

424
00:21:22,660 --> 00:21:25,820
Besides, I've got Jesus, the great high priest,

425
00:21:25,820 --> 00:21:26,980
interceding for me.

426
00:21:26,980 --> 00:21:29,900
And the Bible says that the spirit makes intercession

427
00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:31,860
for us when we don't know how to pray.

428
00:21:31,860 --> 00:21:33,140
So I've got the Holy Spirit,

429
00:21:33,140 --> 00:21:35,820
and I've got the Lord Jesus Christ praying for me.

430
00:21:35,820 --> 00:21:39,980
I don't have to ask a saint to come to my rescue.

431
00:21:39,980 --> 00:21:42,740
I've got the two greatest intercessors in the universe

432
00:21:42,740 --> 00:21:45,140
petitioning the Father in my behalf.

433
00:21:45,140 --> 00:21:48,540
Yeah, and we're not speaking against the people

434
00:21:48,540 --> 00:21:52,020
that are recognized as saints for who they are,

435
00:21:52,020 --> 00:21:53,100
what they've done.

436
00:21:53,100 --> 00:21:56,180
We're just talking about not praying to them.

437
00:21:56,180 --> 00:21:57,460
They were great people.

438
00:21:57,460 --> 00:21:59,460
God used them in mighty ways.

439
00:21:59,460 --> 00:22:03,100
But praying to them is where there's an issue.

440
00:22:04,140 --> 00:22:04,980
Is that correct?

441
00:22:04,980 --> 00:22:06,660
I'm just clarifying that.

442
00:22:06,660 --> 00:22:09,260
I think all believers are saints,

443
00:22:09,260 --> 00:22:14,260
just like all acorns are potential oak trees.

444
00:22:15,180 --> 00:22:17,860
But for that acorn to reach its full potential,

445
00:22:17,860 --> 00:22:20,140
it's got to fall into the ground and die,

446
00:22:20,140 --> 00:22:22,540
and then go through a growing process.

447
00:22:22,540 --> 00:22:27,300
And newborn children of God don't always have

448
00:22:27,300 --> 00:22:31,740
all the exhibited qualities of saintliness in their lives,

449
00:22:31,740 --> 00:22:34,020
but they're growing into it.

450
00:22:34,020 --> 00:22:37,780
And then there are some people who have demonstrated

451
00:22:37,780 --> 00:22:40,540
Christlike character to a very high degree

452
00:22:40,540 --> 00:22:45,540
that show they express saintliness in a more profound way.

453
00:22:46,900 --> 00:22:49,620
And I think it's an inheritance

454
00:22:49,620 --> 00:22:50,700
that belongs to all of us.

455
00:22:50,700 --> 00:22:52,180
All believers are priests.

456
00:22:52,180 --> 00:22:54,260
All believers are saints.

457
00:22:54,260 --> 00:22:56,660
All believers are temples of God.

458
00:22:56,660 --> 00:22:58,980
The church is a living body of believers.

459
00:22:58,980 --> 00:23:00,780
The church is not an organization.

460
00:23:00,780 --> 00:23:02,700
The church is an organism.

461
00:23:02,700 --> 00:23:04,580
It's the living body of believers

462
00:23:04,580 --> 00:23:06,540
who have come into a relationship with God.

463
00:23:06,540 --> 00:23:08,900
And I think once people realize this,

464
00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:12,620
they see the fallacy of all those other beliefs.

465
00:23:13,540 --> 00:23:14,380
Yeah.

466
00:23:14,380 --> 00:23:15,420
You know, Pastor Mike,

467
00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:17,300
I've got a lot more questions for you,

468
00:23:17,300 --> 00:23:19,380
and we might have to do another session.

469
00:23:19,380 --> 00:23:22,420
I'd like to talk about purgatory and other concepts

470
00:23:22,420 --> 00:23:24,500
that have worked in there as well.

471
00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:27,380
But I don't wanna miss this opportunity.

472
00:23:27,380 --> 00:23:29,180
Maybe we can talk about purgatory briefly,

473
00:23:29,180 --> 00:23:30,940
but I do wanna make sure that we pray

474
00:23:30,940 --> 00:23:33,700
for our Catholic friends and family,

475
00:23:33,700 --> 00:23:36,580
brothers and sisters at the end of this time.

476
00:23:36,580 --> 00:23:37,980
But let's talk about purgatory.

477
00:23:37,980 --> 00:23:40,660
Could you explain a little bit about that?

478
00:23:40,660 --> 00:23:45,500
Well, purgatory is the idea of a temporary realm.

479
00:23:45,500 --> 00:23:49,020
It's been described as a realm of suffering.

480
00:23:49,020 --> 00:23:52,540
It's also been described as a realm of purging,

481
00:23:52,540 --> 00:23:56,460
where a person is purged of evil attributes

482
00:23:56,460 --> 00:23:57,820
or negative attributes

483
00:23:57,820 --> 00:24:00,060
that they haven't dealt with during life.

484
00:24:00,060 --> 00:24:01,260
And they're not holy enough

485
00:24:01,260 --> 00:24:04,900
to enter the glory of heaven at death,

486
00:24:04,900 --> 00:24:07,780
but they're not so evil that they should be consigned to hell.

487
00:24:07,780 --> 00:24:11,140
That's the concept that they will therefore

488
00:24:11,140 --> 00:24:14,220
have to spend a period of time in purgatory

489
00:24:14,220 --> 00:24:17,780
in order to atone for their sins.

490
00:24:17,780 --> 00:24:19,620
Well, I believe first of all,

491
00:24:19,620 --> 00:24:23,580
that takes away from the price that Jesus paid

492
00:24:23,580 --> 00:24:27,380
because the Bible said He suffered once for all

493
00:24:27,380 --> 00:24:29,060
to sanctify us.

494
00:24:29,060 --> 00:24:32,820
And there's nothing I can do to earn a status

495
00:24:32,820 --> 00:24:37,820
of acceptability or a status of a great enough holiness

496
00:24:38,940 --> 00:24:43,140
in order to enter the glory of heaven.

497
00:24:43,140 --> 00:24:47,660
Because then I dismiss the idea that grace is sufficient.

498
00:24:47,660 --> 00:24:49,940
I dismiss the idea that faith is sufficient.

499
00:24:49,940 --> 00:24:52,940
I dismiss the idea that Jesus' death on the cross

500
00:24:52,940 --> 00:24:54,300
and resurrection is sufficient.

501
00:24:54,300 --> 00:24:57,460
Then it becomes a works-based mentality

502
00:24:57,460 --> 00:25:00,100
that somehow I have to do something

503
00:25:00,100 --> 00:25:03,700
to earn the status of eternal life in heaven.

504
00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:07,540
And I believe that's an insult to the cross, very much so.

505
00:25:08,540 --> 00:25:10,740
I do a whole chapter on purgatory

506
00:25:10,740 --> 00:25:13,780
and a whole chapter on indulgences in the book.

507
00:25:13,780 --> 00:25:17,460
And I go into a lot of detail in those two chapters

508
00:25:17,460 --> 00:25:20,620
and I couldn't even hardly summarize

509
00:25:20,620 --> 00:25:24,220
everything I cover on this interview.

510
00:25:24,220 --> 00:25:29,220
But I would like to say that there is no Catholic source

511
00:25:29,300 --> 00:25:33,660
that explains the nature of what a person goes through

512
00:25:33,660 --> 00:25:37,680
in purgatory to become a more holy person.

513
00:25:39,060 --> 00:25:41,220
It doesn't define it at all.

514
00:25:41,220 --> 00:25:46,140
It just assumes that there's a suffering process after death.

515
00:25:46,140 --> 00:25:47,460
Well, what happens?

516
00:25:47,460 --> 00:25:49,340
Does a soul just float around

517
00:25:49,340 --> 00:25:53,380
and re-experience the torment of failure

518
00:25:53,380 --> 00:25:56,940
and a realization that they failed God

519
00:25:56,940 --> 00:26:01,020
until that torment cleanses them?

520
00:26:01,020 --> 00:26:02,420
There's no, like I said,

521
00:26:02,420 --> 00:26:05,660
no definition of the process whatsoever.

522
00:26:05,660 --> 00:26:10,620
And by the way, purgatory is a very contested concept

523
00:26:10,620 --> 00:26:12,780
that caused the division of the Eastern

524
00:26:12,780 --> 00:26:16,420
and Western portion of the church around.

525
00:26:16,420 --> 00:26:19,460
It was about a thousand years after the birth of the church,

526
00:26:19,460 --> 00:26:22,460
there was a huge argument among,

527
00:26:22,460 --> 00:26:25,100
I think it was a great deal of why

528
00:26:25,100 --> 00:26:27,220
the Greek Orthodox Church split off

529
00:26:27,220 --> 00:26:30,300
and some other issues as well.

530
00:26:30,300 --> 00:26:35,300
But I am firmly rooted in the belief

531
00:26:37,180 --> 00:26:39,780
that there's only two destinations after death

532
00:26:39,780 --> 00:26:41,960
and that's either heaven or hell.

533
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,780
The Bible never talks about purgatory.

534
00:26:44,780 --> 00:26:49,280
I would like to address the go-to scripture.

535
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,060
In fact, Catholics say this is the go-to scripture

536
00:26:52,060 --> 00:26:56,000
if you're gonna try and prove purgatory,

537
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,860
that you should go to this scripture definitely.

538
00:26:58,860 --> 00:27:01,020
And I'm looking in the book right now

539
00:27:01,020 --> 00:27:03,860
so I can quote it to you exactly.

540
00:27:03,860 --> 00:27:07,380
It's out of Paul's writings to the Corinthians

541
00:27:07,380 --> 00:27:10,900
where he said, no other foundation can be laid

542
00:27:10,900 --> 00:27:13,700
than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

543
00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:16,380
And if any man build on this foundation,

544
00:27:18,380 --> 00:27:22,080
if he builds good works, then they endure forever,

545
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,100
but he can also build, he can build gold, silver,

546
00:27:26,220 --> 00:27:29,140
silver or precious stones or wood, hay or stubble.

547
00:27:29,140 --> 00:27:31,760
And it said, the day that comes

548
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,860
shall try those works by fire.

549
00:27:34,860 --> 00:27:37,660
And that those works will either be burned up

550
00:27:37,660 --> 00:27:42,660
and the person be saved or that the fire will reveal

551
00:27:44,140 --> 00:27:46,260
every man's work of what sort it is.

552
00:27:46,260 --> 00:27:48,380
And if you read that passage of scripture

553
00:27:48,380 --> 00:27:51,140
out of Corinthians very carefully,

554
00:27:51,140 --> 00:27:54,980
it does not say that the fire will try every man's works

555
00:27:54,980 --> 00:27:57,300
over a period of thousands of years.

556
00:27:57,300 --> 00:28:00,380
It says the day, the day, capital letter D,

557
00:28:00,380 --> 00:28:02,500
the day shall declare it.

558
00:28:02,500 --> 00:28:06,340
And so it's talking about the specific day

559
00:28:06,340 --> 00:28:09,260
when Jesus will come again in flaming fire

560
00:28:09,260 --> 00:28:11,360
and all his holy angels.

561
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:15,140
And at that moment, he will judge, he will discern,

562
00:28:15,140 --> 00:28:20,140
he will immediately assess the works

563
00:28:20,180 --> 00:28:21,260
that have been in our life.

564
00:28:21,260 --> 00:28:22,980
And he will determine whether or not

565
00:28:22,980 --> 00:28:25,100
it's wood, hay or stubble.

566
00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:29,620
And instantly that scripture is only dealing with Christians.

567
00:28:29,620 --> 00:28:32,180
It's not dealing with the unbelievers.

568
00:28:32,180 --> 00:28:36,460
It says, if any man build on this foundation,

569
00:28:36,460 --> 00:28:37,420
what foundation?

570
00:28:37,420 --> 00:28:39,380
No other foundation can be laid

571
00:28:39,380 --> 00:28:42,020
than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

572
00:28:42,020 --> 00:28:43,560
So it's talking about those who've tried

573
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,480
to build their life on Jesus,

574
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,620
but that some of them have built works

575
00:28:48,620 --> 00:28:49,740
that are wood, hay and stubble.

576
00:28:49,740 --> 00:28:53,860
They're lifeless, they're of no eternal value.

577
00:28:53,860 --> 00:28:56,980
And I would dare to say a lot of what's been done

578
00:28:56,980 --> 00:29:00,660
in denominational Christianity is wood, hay and stubble

579
00:29:00,660 --> 00:29:03,060
because it involves doctrines and practices

580
00:29:03,060 --> 00:29:05,700
and traditions that are not biblical.

581
00:29:05,700 --> 00:29:08,820
And so because of that, the works will be burned up,

582
00:29:08,820 --> 00:29:12,260
but if a person truly loves Jesus and is born again,

583
00:29:12,260 --> 00:29:15,420
they will be saved yet so as by fire.

584
00:29:15,420 --> 00:29:17,380
That's not talking about purgatory.

585
00:29:17,380 --> 00:29:20,380
It's talking about what we do for the Lord

586
00:29:20,380 --> 00:29:22,420
after we're saved.

587
00:29:22,420 --> 00:29:25,180
Yeah, it's very important for people to know

588
00:29:25,180 --> 00:29:27,420
why you believe what you believe,

589
00:29:27,420 --> 00:29:30,300
and also where did that belief come from?

590
00:29:30,300 --> 00:29:32,980
If you can trace that belief back to the Bible,

591
00:29:32,980 --> 00:29:37,060
the word of God, then you're in good standing.

592
00:29:37,060 --> 00:29:41,440
If you trace it back to history or tradition,

593
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,500
then you've got rocky ground and that is not a good thing.

594
00:29:44,500 --> 00:29:47,700
Always get back to the foundation of Jesus Christ

595
00:29:47,700 --> 00:29:50,140
and his word and then you're gonna be

596
00:29:50,140 --> 00:29:51,980
in a much, much better place for sure.

597
00:29:51,980 --> 00:29:54,100
Pastor Mike, any closing thoughts

598
00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:56,420
and then would you wrap up in prayer

599
00:29:56,420 --> 00:29:59,180
and pray for our Catholic brothers and sisters?

600
00:29:59,180 --> 00:30:01,500
Incidentally, that scripture I just quoted,

601
00:30:01,500 --> 00:30:02,980
I found it while you were talking

602
00:30:02,980 --> 00:30:06,540
this 1 Corinthians 3 verses 11 through 15.

603
00:30:06,540 --> 00:30:09,460
And you mentioned one word that I want to end with

604
00:30:09,460 --> 00:30:12,340
very concisely and that's the word tradition.

605
00:30:12,340 --> 00:30:16,400
The reason that Catholics can embrace many ideas,

606
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,340
many concepts that are not biblical

607
00:30:19,340 --> 00:30:20,900
is because of something called

608
00:30:20,900 --> 00:30:24,020
the three legs of Catholicism.

609
00:30:24,020 --> 00:30:27,780
It's depicted as a stool, a stool that has a top

610
00:30:27,780 --> 00:30:31,380
and three legs of equal height of equal importance.

611
00:30:31,380 --> 00:30:34,220
And the three legs are sacred scripture,

612
00:30:34,220 --> 00:30:37,100
sacred tradition and the magisterium.

613
00:30:37,100 --> 00:30:38,740
And the magisterium is a word

614
00:30:38,740 --> 00:30:40,620
meaning the hierarchy of the church,

615
00:30:40,620 --> 00:30:42,300
the Pope and all the bishops.

616
00:30:42,300 --> 00:30:46,260
Well, if sacred tradition includes an idea,

617
00:30:46,260 --> 00:30:49,260
concept or practice that is not found in the Bible,

618
00:30:49,260 --> 00:30:50,380
that's okay.

619
00:30:50,380 --> 00:30:54,080
According to Catholicism, that's of equal authority

620
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,120
and equally believable if it's established

621
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:58,620
by the magisterium.

622
00:30:58,620 --> 00:31:01,440
And so that's why they can have many beliefs

623
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,400
that are not necessarily found in the Bible.

624
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,780
And I would just urge anyone who's a Catholic

625
00:31:07,780 --> 00:31:09,260
who's listening to this,

626
00:31:09,260 --> 00:31:12,320
I want you to know that my whole motive

627
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,020
in making you address or encouraging you,

628
00:31:16,020 --> 00:31:16,860
I'll put it that way,

629
00:31:16,860 --> 00:31:19,740
encouraging you to address these issues

630
00:31:19,740 --> 00:31:23,180
and to examine these concepts and ideas

631
00:31:23,180 --> 00:31:25,940
is so that you can sift your way

632
00:31:25,940 --> 00:31:28,780
through the things that have prevented you

633
00:31:28,780 --> 00:31:31,820
from having a genuine encounter with the Lord.

634
00:31:31,820 --> 00:31:35,200
I did not receive the Holy Spirit when I was confirmed,

635
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,100
but when I was 20 years old,

636
00:31:38,100 --> 00:31:39,900
I got baptized in the Holy Spirit

637
00:31:39,900 --> 00:31:41,180
and began speaking in tongues.

638
00:31:41,180 --> 00:31:44,460
And it was literally like heaven on earth.

639
00:31:44,460 --> 00:31:47,620
That moment was ecstasy beyond description.

640
00:31:47,620 --> 00:31:50,820
I want you precious Catholics

641
00:31:50,820 --> 00:31:53,060
to experience being born again,

642
00:31:53,060 --> 00:31:54,660
like I did when I was 19,

643
00:31:54,660 --> 00:31:57,180
to experience being filled with the Holy Spirit,

644
00:31:57,180 --> 00:31:58,900
like I did when I was 20.

645
00:31:58,900 --> 00:32:00,660
That's my heart's cry for you.

646
00:32:00,660 --> 00:32:02,460
And so I'm praying right now,

647
00:32:02,460 --> 00:32:05,340
Father God in the name of Jesus,

648
00:32:05,340 --> 00:32:08,580
especially if there are Catholic brothers and sisters

649
00:32:08,580 --> 00:32:11,460
listening to this presentation,

650
00:32:11,460 --> 00:32:14,360
I pray that you will open their eyes to the truth

651
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,580
and reveal yourself to them

652
00:32:16,580 --> 00:32:19,080
in a very powerful and profound way

653
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,980
and that they will come into a greater depth

654
00:32:21,980 --> 00:32:24,180
of a personal relationship with you

655
00:32:24,180 --> 00:32:26,080
than they've ever had before.

656
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,540
May there be a great deliverance

657
00:32:28,540 --> 00:32:31,900
from any beliefs that are non-biblical

658
00:32:31,900 --> 00:32:33,620
and may they see the importance

659
00:32:33,620 --> 00:32:37,320
of the foundation of the word of God being in their life

660
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,600
at the expense of any other beliefs being forsaken

661
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,580
that are not biblically based.

662
00:32:42,580 --> 00:32:46,300
Let that be the major step forward

663
00:32:46,300 --> 00:32:49,180
that many of those listening to this podcast make

664
00:32:49,180 --> 00:32:50,900
in Jesus' name, amen.

665
00:32:50,900 --> 00:32:52,540
Amen and amen.

666
00:32:52,540 --> 00:32:54,780
Pastor Mike Shreve, it's great to have you here

667
00:32:54,780 --> 00:32:58,340
on Charisma News to talk about this new book,

668
00:32:58,340 --> 00:33:01,260
the beliefs of the Catholic Church.

669
00:33:01,260 --> 00:33:05,700
And I wanna encourage people to go to catholicswithlove.org

670
00:33:05,700 --> 00:33:08,340
for more information from Pastor Mike.

671
00:33:09,700 --> 00:33:11,780
Definitely he's got some great resources

672
00:33:11,780 --> 00:33:12,980
that you need to check out.

673
00:33:12,980 --> 00:33:14,260
So Pastor Mike, thank you so much

674
00:33:14,260 --> 00:33:17,380
for joining us here on Charisma News.

675
00:33:17,380 --> 00:33:18,740
It's always a blessing, John.

676
00:33:18,740 --> 00:33:20,140
You're a great brother in the Lord.

677
00:33:20,140 --> 00:33:20,980
I appreciate you.

678
00:33:20,980 --> 00:33:21,820
Well, thank you.

679
00:33:21,820 --> 00:33:22,660
Bless you.