Transcript
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Pastor Mike Shreve, it's great to have you back here
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on Charisma News.
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And this time we're gonna be talking about your book,
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Beliefs of the Catholic Church.
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And we are talking about this from a place
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where we love the Catholic Church.
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We love Catholic people.
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My parents both grew up Catholic.
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My grandparents were Catholic.
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I have a lot of respect and admiration for their devotion.
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But there's definitely some things that I,
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as I read the Bible, I don't agree with,
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but I still wanna show love and respect.
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And so I think this conversation and you sharing your life
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is gonna help a lot of people be able to connect
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to our Catholic brothers and sisters.
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And I have nothing but warm memories.
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My grandmother was an extremely fervent Catholic
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who prayed the rosary every day.
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And her last words to my father were,
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Andy, I'll rise with Jesus.
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I believe she had a personal relationship with the Lord
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and that she will be in the resurrection, praise God.
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That was her final confession.
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And I was an ultra boy.
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I could show you pictures of me back in my first communion
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or in my ultra boy cassock.
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And I served under priests that were real role models
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of Christ-like character, gentle, meek, humble, God-loving,
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God-fearing men.
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And so again, I have only warm memories.
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They were a positive influence in my life.
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I went to parochial school up until middle school
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and the nuns were wonderful.
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A few of them were a little fierce to deal with,
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but I don't blame them with a hundred kids in the classroom.
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They'd have to be pretty strong to manage all of us.
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But once again, they kept me secluded
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from a lot of the rampant evil
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that's in the public school system.
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And so I'm very thankful.
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But like you, I have since searched out the Bible myself,
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which a lot of Catholics do not do.
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They do not read the Bible for themselves.
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They trust in the Catechism.
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And once I began reading the Bible,
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I saw this disparity between true biblical,
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authentic Christianity and what I'd been taught
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as a Catholic.
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And so I felt like this book needed to be written
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because a lot of times I've seen presentation
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by Protestants concerning Catholicism
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that I thought was really harsh and insensitive
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because they didn't really understand it
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from a Catholic perspective.
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But I'm coming from that perspective.
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I was-
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I agree with you.
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I feel like there's been a lot of Catholic bashing
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and that's not what you're doing.
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It's not what I wanna do.
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Absolutely not.
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The Catholics that I have in my life absolutely love Jesus,
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but there's definitely some other things
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that are maybe non-essentials, I don't know,
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that we disagree about.
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And so I'd love to hear more
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of what you have to say with this.
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Well, I think a good place to start
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is the definition of the church.
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And in the book, I might read a quote
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from the first chapter, the first chapter deals
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with the whole idea of what is the true church.
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And if you go back in Catholic doctrine
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in their ecumenical councils and so forth,
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you'll find out that over and over they teach
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that the Catholic church is the only true church.
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And it's one point, incidentally,
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it's 1.3 billion members strong.
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So that's the largest segment of Christianity in the world.
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There's about 2.6 billion people.
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And I think it would help to see
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that according to my insight now,
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I believe there's two aspects
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to what people call the church.
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There's something called the professing church,
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which I was a part of growing up,
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but I did not know Jesus.
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I had no personal relationship with God,
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but I was part of the professing church.
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And that's made up of all those who profess faith
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in the historical validity of the existence of Jesus
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and what he accomplished,
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his death for the sins of humanity,
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his burial, his resurrection, his ascension.
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I believed in all of that.
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I was taught all of that, but I did not know him.
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And yet in John chapter 17, Jesus said,
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this is eternal life that they might know you,
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the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
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He didn't say know about you, God.
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He said, this is eternal life that they might know you.
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And that was the missing element.
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And it was a very important missing element in my life.
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Then at the nucleus, at the core of the professing church
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is a much smaller group I call the possessing church.
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And that's made up of people of many denomination,
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Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Episcopals, et cetera,
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who have had a genuine, authentic, heartfelt encounter
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that came to them by making Jesus Lord of their lives,
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by surrendering to him and inviting him into their heart.
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Jesus said, I stand at the door and knock.
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And if any man hear my voice,
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I will open the door and come into him.
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And that's exactly what he wants to do.
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And that's when I was spiritually regenerated.
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I was born again at the age of 19.
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I was not born again
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when the Catholic church says you're born again.
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And that's that infant baptism.
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And that might be a good subject to tackle next.
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Yeah, let's talk about that.
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This whole concept of infant baptism versus baptism
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when you can make the confession yourself.
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I know that when we look at baptism in the Bible,
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actually this morning I was just reading in Mark
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where Jesus went to John the Baptist and was baptized.
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And you look and see, well, we know that Jesus was
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in his thirties whenever this happened
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and began his public ministry right after that.
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So he was not an infant, but when he was at eight days old,
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we know that he went to the temple
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and he was really circumcised.
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And that's what happened at that point
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because that's historically what happens
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on the eighth day there.
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But what is, where did this infant baptism come from?
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And what is it now today?
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Well, first of all, let me say that the Catholic church
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teaches that five things happen.
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Five definite things happen during infant baptism.
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Number one, that child is born again.
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Number two, the spirit of God enters that child.
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Number three, that child receives the gift of eternal life.
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Number four, that child becomes a member of the church.
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And number five, original sin is canceled and dismissed
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and purged from that child.
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So five supernatural things are supposed to take place
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during sprinkling that never take place.
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And so tragically, what happens is you have
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unregenerated infants that grow up
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to be unregenerated teenagers that lose faith
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in Christianity because they never had
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a genuine encounter with God,
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or unregenerated adults that think they've received
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this experience possibly of being born again,
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and yet they haven't done it the biblical way
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and haven't had a real encounter with Jesus quite often.
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Quite often that's the case, more often than not.
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And so that's the tragedy of the matter.
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Infant baptism strangely was not originally taught
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in the church.
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It was not originally taught among the disciples at all.
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Now Catholics will cite, I think it's five instances,
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four or five instances where it talks about
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a whole household being baptized.
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Like Cornelius that wanted to be saved
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after Paul and Silas sang at the midnight hour
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and the jail cell doors blew open.
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Well, it's that he and his household were baptized.
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And they use those descriptions
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that happened in the book of Acts
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about four or five times to try and prove
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that infant baptism is true.
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But in not one of those circumstances
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was it mentioned that infants were involved.
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A household could have been adults or older children
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that had an awareness of what they were doing
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because the proper order is repent and be baptized.
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And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
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Well, only people old enough to know
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the concept of repentance therefore can be baptized.
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And I think one of the strongest examples
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is when Philip preached to the Ethiopian eunuch.
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It's a great story in the book of Acts
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where he joined himself to the chariot
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of this Ethiopian eunuch and he just happened to be,
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it was a God encounter, a God set up.
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He just happened to be reading Isaiah 53 at the time.
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And he said, what's this talking about?
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And Philip explained it to him.
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And then the Ethiopian eunuch said, well, here is water.
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They were apparently parked near a body of water.
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He said, what does hinder me?
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Can I be baptized?
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And Philip said, and this is key, he said,
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if you believe with all your heart, you can be baptized.
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And so he made that a prerequisite for baptism.
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An infant baby cannot believe with all of his or her heart.
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It's got to be later on in life.
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Some people call it the age of accountability,
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which is not necessarily a scriptural term or idea,
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but at least a point where a child can understand
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and comprehend the difference between good and evil
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and what's actually happening.
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Yeah, I know that for me, I prayed the prayer
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to receive Jesus when I was four years old.
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And that is a moment that I'll never forget.
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I can take you to that space at my parents' house.
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And my mother, she prayed with me
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and I knew what was happening.
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I can remember what happened earlier in the day
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that made me want to pray to receive Jesus.
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And then I remember later as a separate occasion,
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whenever I got baptized at my pastor's pool
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and then got filled with the Spirit as well,
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filled the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
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And those are distinct moments
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that I was a part of making that decision.
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I was the integral part.
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If I wasn't making the decision,
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none of those things would have happened.
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And I'm so grateful for those memories.
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And I know that an infant will not be able
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to remember those memories, even if they could,
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if they could make that decision.
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But it's something that we need to do.
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Dedicating babies is one thing,
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but baptism is a completely different thing.
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Right, and that's a very important thing, very important.
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And I believe another really important issue
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is the whole idea of an exclusive priesthood.
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Because in Catholicism, only a priest can administer baptism,
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only a priest can serve communion,
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only a priest or a bishop can preside,
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and usually it's a bishop preside over confirmation,
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which is the sacrament where supposedly you're filled with,
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or sealed by the Holy Spirit.
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And only a priest can administer extreme unction
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or the final anointing,
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which a person receives just prior to death.
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And so it makes a mediatorial priesthood a necessity
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from birth to death.
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And that ties you to the church
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and makes it a very fearful thing
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for you to even think about leaving
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because you would cut off your source of forgiveness.
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Because according to Catholic doctrine,
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only a priest can forgive mortal sin
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or sin that leads to death.
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And so if you don't go to confession
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and you have mortal sin in your life,
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you're assigning yourself to an eternal hell.
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So no wonder these are very, very important issues.
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And so what does the Bible have to say about it?
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The scripture actually teaches
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that all believers are priests.
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In the Old Testament, they did have an exclusive priesthood,
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Aaron and his sons were the priests.
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And you had to go to those priests
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in order to be reconciled back to God
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through the proper sacrifices being offered
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at the Tabernacle of Moses,
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later on the Temple of Solomon and so forth.
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But that did not overflow into the New Testament
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because Jesus is our great high priest.
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Now we have boldness to enter the holiest.
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See, in the Old Testament,
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only the high priest could go into the holy of holies.
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But now all believers can have boldness
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to enter the holiness, whether the forerunner has,
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for us, has already entered.
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And that's talking about Jesus,
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who's made a high priest forever.
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So we don't have to have a mediatorial priesthood
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to go through.
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We go to God directly to be forgiven of our sins.
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And we, of course, prepare our hearts
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for departure from this world
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between us and the Lord Jesus Christ
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as a personal relationship with him.
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I don't have to have someone performing a ritual over me
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before I pass from this world.
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And 1 Peter 2.5 says all believers are a holy priesthood.
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1 Peter 2.9 says all believers are a royal priesthood.
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Now, to be fair, Catholic doctrine does teach
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that there's two classes of priests.
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And that there's a ministerial priesthood,
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and that there is a lesser level of priesthood
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assigned to all believers.
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But still, it's not the same as the biblical interpretation
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of what a priest is.
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Yeah.
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And as you were talking about
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the whole mediator concept there,
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I'm reminded of 1 Timothy 2.5, where it says,
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"'For there is one God and one mediator
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"'who can reconcile God and humanity,
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"'the man Christ Jesus.'"
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And so that is one thing that has always helped me,
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knowing that Jesus is the one that we pray to.
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He's our mediator.
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He's the one that's taking our intercession
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to God the Father.
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And it is not the saints, it's not Mary.
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But that's one of the things where there's a big difference
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is sainthood and Mary, and praying to people that,
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or praying to saints that aren't Jesus.
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And what actually is the sainthood, actually?
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Let's talk about that for a little bit.
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I think that's an important subject.
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And incidentally, a lot of people don't understand
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that Catholicism has evolved through the centuries.
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And all of the beliefs that are now
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comprising this worldview called Catholicism
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have not always been a part of that organization.
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For instance, just to give you one quick example
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before I address sainthood, for instance,
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the Immaculate Conception of Mary
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is a major Catholic doctrine.
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The belief that just like Jesus was conceived without sin,
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so Mary was conceived without sin.
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Unknown to most people, that became a Catholic belief
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ratified by the church in 1854.
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So just about, what, less than 150 years ago.
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And then in 1950, through a papal decree
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that was considered infallible,
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the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary was introduced,
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which is the belief that Mary was assumed up into heaven,
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similar to Enoch or Elijah,
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that she was assumed up to heaven.
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And then in 1954, that's less than a century ago,
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she was declared to be the queen of heaven.
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And so these are more recent doctrines.
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And if anyone begins to search out,
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in fact, I'm about to put an article on my website.
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My website is called to catholicswithlove.org.
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And I'm about to put an article,
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probably in the next week or two,
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on the evolution of Catholic beliefs
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and how many of them happened hundreds of years,
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even a thousand or more years
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after the coming of Jesus to this earth.
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But talking about sainthood,
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the scripture is very clear
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in addressing all believers as saints.
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If you go to the introduction of many of the epistles,
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Paul would write to the saints which are at Ephesus,
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to the saints which are at Philippi,
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to the saints which are at Corinth.
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So all believers were referred to that way.
352
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And so we need to understand what a saint is.
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A saint is a person who has been sanctified.
354
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And there's a triune meaning to that.
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To be sanctified means, number one,
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to be cleansed from the defilement of sin.
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Number two, to be made holy in the sight of God.
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And number three, to be sanctified means
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to be set apart for God's purposes.
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And that happens at a true salvation experience.
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You're cleansed from your sin by the blood of Jesus.
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You are made holy because the Bible said the new man,
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00:18:06,140 --> 00:18:09,300
the inward man is created in righteousness
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and true holiness.
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00:18:10,980 --> 00:18:13,740
You are rendered sinless by the power of the blood
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of Jesus flowing through you.
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And if you've truly surrendered to the lordship of Jesus,
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you are set apart for God's divine purpose in your life.
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Bam, you become a saint at that point.
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00:18:25,940 --> 00:18:30,540
And there was no concept of an exclusive group
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of canonized saints.
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The first thousand years of the church,
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that happened much later on.
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00:18:38,660 --> 00:18:41,500
When I think it was in the 900s,
375
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when the first saint was canonized.
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And then eventually there evolved this concept
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of being able to pray to the saints
378
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to intervene in our behalf.
379
00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:55,500
But to believe that, well,
380
00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:58,420
I should mention the canonization process.
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In order to be a canonized saint,
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00:19:00,180 --> 00:19:02,980
there has to be two miracles happen
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by someone appealing to that saint in prayer.
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And that person has to have a recognized life
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of consecration, of course, and dedication.
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But there has to be evidence supplied
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that that person has some kind of power
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in being approached after death for a miracle to be wrought.
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Well, God in Deuteronomy 18, for instance,
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00:19:29,980 --> 00:19:34,980
he very explicitly prohibited anyone
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trying to contact the dead.
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00:19:36,580 --> 00:19:41,580
And we have the account of Saul trying to contact Samuel
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and how that even hastened his death
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because he disobeyed God in going to a medium.
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00:19:50,260 --> 00:19:53,780
And I believe the whole Catholic concept
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00:19:53,780 --> 00:19:57,780
of praying to the saints is a transgression
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00:19:57,780 --> 00:20:00,860
against God's prohibiting of that practice.
398
00:20:00,860 --> 00:20:04,580
Also, I believe not only is it theologically incorrect,
399
00:20:04,580 --> 00:20:09,580
it's logically absurd because take, for instance,
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00:20:10,860 --> 00:20:15,860
if there's out of the church, maybe 25%
401
00:20:16,380 --> 00:20:20,740
of 1.3 billion Catholics in the world,
402
00:20:20,740 --> 00:20:23,940
if a quarter of a billion Catholics in one day
403
00:20:23,940 --> 00:20:26,180
pray to Saint Peter.
404
00:20:26,180 --> 00:20:28,700
Saint Peter has got to be aware
405
00:20:28,700 --> 00:20:32,660
of 250 million conversations at once,
406
00:20:32,660 --> 00:20:34,220
or a little over that.
407
00:20:34,220 --> 00:20:35,820
And he's got to be personally present
408
00:20:35,820 --> 00:20:37,860
in every one of those person's lives.
409
00:20:37,860 --> 00:20:42,020
Now I do well to stay focused on one conversation
410
00:20:42,020 --> 00:20:44,300
with one person at one time.
411
00:20:44,300 --> 00:20:47,900
Can you imagine being hit with 250 million requests
412
00:20:47,900 --> 00:20:48,740
in one day?
413
00:20:48,740 --> 00:20:50,180
I cannot, I cannot.
414
00:20:50,180 --> 00:20:52,300
You break that down mathematically
415
00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:55,260
into minutes and seconds, and he's got thousands
416
00:20:55,260 --> 00:20:58,700
of people coming to him every second by second.
417
00:20:58,700 --> 00:21:02,100
And to process that, he'd have to have omniscience
418
00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:06,060
and omnipresence, which are attributes only God has.
419
00:21:06,060 --> 00:21:10,380
And to attribute that ability to Mary or to the saints
420
00:21:10,380 --> 00:21:14,420
is to lift them up to the level of the Godhead.
421
00:21:14,420 --> 00:21:18,020
And I believe that's impossibility.
422
00:21:18,020 --> 00:21:21,180
And when you look at it just logically,
423
00:21:21,180 --> 00:21:22,660
it doesn't make any sense at all.
424
00:21:22,660 --> 00:21:25,820
Besides, I've got Jesus, the great high priest,
425
00:21:25,820 --> 00:21:26,980
interceding for me.
426
00:21:26,980 --> 00:21:29,900
And the Bible says that the spirit makes intercession
427
00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:31,860
for us when we don't know how to pray.
428
00:21:31,860 --> 00:21:33,140
So I've got the Holy Spirit,
429
00:21:33,140 --> 00:21:35,820
and I've got the Lord Jesus Christ praying for me.
430
00:21:35,820 --> 00:21:39,980
I don't have to ask a saint to come to my rescue.
431
00:21:39,980 --> 00:21:42,740
I've got the two greatest intercessors in the universe
432
00:21:42,740 --> 00:21:45,140
petitioning the Father in my behalf.
433
00:21:45,140 --> 00:21:48,540
Yeah, and we're not speaking against the people
434
00:21:48,540 --> 00:21:52,020
that are recognized as saints for who they are,
435
00:21:52,020 --> 00:21:53,100
what they've done.
436
00:21:53,100 --> 00:21:56,180
We're just talking about not praying to them.
437
00:21:56,180 --> 00:21:57,460
They were great people.
438
00:21:57,460 --> 00:21:59,460
God used them in mighty ways.
439
00:21:59,460 --> 00:22:03,100
But praying to them is where there's an issue.
440
00:22:04,140 --> 00:22:04,980
Is that correct?
441
00:22:04,980 --> 00:22:06,660
I'm just clarifying that.
442
00:22:06,660 --> 00:22:09,260
I think all believers are saints,
443
00:22:09,260 --> 00:22:14,260
just like all acorns are potential oak trees.
444
00:22:15,180 --> 00:22:17,860
But for that acorn to reach its full potential,
445
00:22:17,860 --> 00:22:20,140
it's got to fall into the ground and die,
446
00:22:20,140 --> 00:22:22,540
and then go through a growing process.
447
00:22:22,540 --> 00:22:27,300
And newborn children of God don't always have
448
00:22:27,300 --> 00:22:31,740
all the exhibited qualities of saintliness in their lives,
449
00:22:31,740 --> 00:22:34,020
but they're growing into it.
450
00:22:34,020 --> 00:22:37,780
And then there are some people who have demonstrated
451
00:22:37,780 --> 00:22:40,540
Christlike character to a very high degree
452
00:22:40,540 --> 00:22:45,540
that show they express saintliness in a more profound way.
453
00:22:46,900 --> 00:22:49,620
And I think it's an inheritance
454
00:22:49,620 --> 00:22:50,700
that belongs to all of us.
455
00:22:50,700 --> 00:22:52,180
All believers are priests.
456
00:22:52,180 --> 00:22:54,260
All believers are saints.
457
00:22:54,260 --> 00:22:56,660
All believers are temples of God.
458
00:22:56,660 --> 00:22:58,980
The church is a living body of believers.
459
00:22:58,980 --> 00:23:00,780
The church is not an organization.
460
00:23:00,780 --> 00:23:02,700
The church is an organism.
461
00:23:02,700 --> 00:23:04,580
It's the living body of believers
462
00:23:04,580 --> 00:23:06,540
who have come into a relationship with God.
463
00:23:06,540 --> 00:23:08,900
And I think once people realize this,
464
00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:12,620
they see the fallacy of all those other beliefs.
465
00:23:13,540 --> 00:23:14,380
Yeah.
466
00:23:14,380 --> 00:23:15,420
You know, Pastor Mike,
467
00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:17,300
I've got a lot more questions for you,
468
00:23:17,300 --> 00:23:19,380
and we might have to do another session.
469
00:23:19,380 --> 00:23:22,420
I'd like to talk about purgatory and other concepts
470
00:23:22,420 --> 00:23:24,500
that have worked in there as well.
471
00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:27,380
But I don't wanna miss this opportunity.
472
00:23:27,380 --> 00:23:29,180
Maybe we can talk about purgatory briefly,
473
00:23:29,180 --> 00:23:30,940
but I do wanna make sure that we pray
474
00:23:30,940 --> 00:23:33,700
for our Catholic friends and family,
475
00:23:33,700 --> 00:23:36,580
brothers and sisters at the end of this time.
476
00:23:36,580 --> 00:23:37,980
But let's talk about purgatory.
477
00:23:37,980 --> 00:23:40,660
Could you explain a little bit about that?
478
00:23:40,660 --> 00:23:45,500
Well, purgatory is the idea of a temporary realm.
479
00:23:45,500 --> 00:23:49,020
It's been described as a realm of suffering.
480
00:23:49,020 --> 00:23:52,540
It's also been described as a realm of purging,
481
00:23:52,540 --> 00:23:56,460
where a person is purged of evil attributes
482
00:23:56,460 --> 00:23:57,820
or negative attributes
483
00:23:57,820 --> 00:24:00,060
that they haven't dealt with during life.
484
00:24:00,060 --> 00:24:01,260
And they're not holy enough
485
00:24:01,260 --> 00:24:04,900
to enter the glory of heaven at death,
486
00:24:04,900 --> 00:24:07,780
but they're not so evil that they should be consigned to hell.
487
00:24:07,780 --> 00:24:11,140
That's the concept that they will therefore
488
00:24:11,140 --> 00:24:14,220
have to spend a period of time in purgatory
489
00:24:14,220 --> 00:24:17,780
in order to atone for their sins.
490
00:24:17,780 --> 00:24:19,620
Well, I believe first of all,
491
00:24:19,620 --> 00:24:23,580
that takes away from the price that Jesus paid
492
00:24:23,580 --> 00:24:27,380
because the Bible said He suffered once for all
493
00:24:27,380 --> 00:24:29,060
to sanctify us.
494
00:24:29,060 --> 00:24:32,820
And there's nothing I can do to earn a status
495
00:24:32,820 --> 00:24:37,820
of acceptability or a status of a great enough holiness
496
00:24:38,940 --> 00:24:43,140
in order to enter the glory of heaven.
497
00:24:43,140 --> 00:24:47,660
Because then I dismiss the idea that grace is sufficient.
498
00:24:47,660 --> 00:24:49,940
I dismiss the idea that faith is sufficient.
499
00:24:49,940 --> 00:24:52,940
I dismiss the idea that Jesus' death on the cross
500
00:24:52,940 --> 00:24:54,300
and resurrection is sufficient.
501
00:24:54,300 --> 00:24:57,460
Then it becomes a works-based mentality
502
00:24:57,460 --> 00:25:00,100
that somehow I have to do something
503
00:25:00,100 --> 00:25:03,700
to earn the status of eternal life in heaven.
504
00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:07,540
And I believe that's an insult to the cross, very much so.
505
00:25:08,540 --> 00:25:10,740
I do a whole chapter on purgatory
506
00:25:10,740 --> 00:25:13,780
and a whole chapter on indulgences in the book.
507
00:25:13,780 --> 00:25:17,460
And I go into a lot of detail in those two chapters
508
00:25:17,460 --> 00:25:20,620
and I couldn't even hardly summarize
509
00:25:20,620 --> 00:25:24,220
everything I cover on this interview.
510
00:25:24,220 --> 00:25:29,220
But I would like to say that there is no Catholic source
511
00:25:29,300 --> 00:25:33,660
that explains the nature of what a person goes through
512
00:25:33,660 --> 00:25:37,680
in purgatory to become a more holy person.
513
00:25:39,060 --> 00:25:41,220
It doesn't define it at all.
514
00:25:41,220 --> 00:25:46,140
It just assumes that there's a suffering process after death.
515
00:25:46,140 --> 00:25:47,460
Well, what happens?
516
00:25:47,460 --> 00:25:49,340
Does a soul just float around
517
00:25:49,340 --> 00:25:53,380
and re-experience the torment of failure
518
00:25:53,380 --> 00:25:56,940
and a realization that they failed God
519
00:25:56,940 --> 00:26:01,020
until that torment cleanses them?
520
00:26:01,020 --> 00:26:02,420
There's no, like I said,
521
00:26:02,420 --> 00:26:05,660
no definition of the process whatsoever.
522
00:26:05,660 --> 00:26:10,620
And by the way, purgatory is a very contested concept
523
00:26:10,620 --> 00:26:12,780
that caused the division of the Eastern
524
00:26:12,780 --> 00:26:16,420
and Western portion of the church around.
525
00:26:16,420 --> 00:26:19,460
It was about a thousand years after the birth of the church,
526
00:26:19,460 --> 00:26:22,460
there was a huge argument among,
527
00:26:22,460 --> 00:26:25,100
I think it was a great deal of why
528
00:26:25,100 --> 00:26:27,220
the Greek Orthodox Church split off
529
00:26:27,220 --> 00:26:30,300
and some other issues as well.
530
00:26:30,300 --> 00:26:35,300
But I am firmly rooted in the belief
531
00:26:37,180 --> 00:26:39,780
that there's only two destinations after death
532
00:26:39,780 --> 00:26:41,960
and that's either heaven or hell.
533
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,780
The Bible never talks about purgatory.
534
00:26:44,780 --> 00:26:49,280
I would like to address the go-to scripture.
535
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,060
In fact, Catholics say this is the go-to scripture
536
00:26:52,060 --> 00:26:56,000
if you're gonna try and prove purgatory,
537
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,860
that you should go to this scripture definitely.
538
00:26:58,860 --> 00:27:01,020
And I'm looking in the book right now
539
00:27:01,020 --> 00:27:03,860
so I can quote it to you exactly.
540
00:27:03,860 --> 00:27:07,380
It's out of Paul's writings to the Corinthians
541
00:27:07,380 --> 00:27:10,900
where he said, no other foundation can be laid
542
00:27:10,900 --> 00:27:13,700
than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
543
00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:16,380
And if any man build on this foundation,
544
00:27:18,380 --> 00:27:22,080
if he builds good works, then they endure forever,
545
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,100
but he can also build, he can build gold, silver,
546
00:27:26,220 --> 00:27:29,140
silver or precious stones or wood, hay or stubble.
547
00:27:29,140 --> 00:27:31,760
And it said, the day that comes
548
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,860
shall try those works by fire.
549
00:27:34,860 --> 00:27:37,660
And that those works will either be burned up
550
00:27:37,660 --> 00:27:42,660
and the person be saved or that the fire will reveal
551
00:27:44,140 --> 00:27:46,260
every man's work of what sort it is.
552
00:27:46,260 --> 00:27:48,380
And if you read that passage of scripture
553
00:27:48,380 --> 00:27:51,140
out of Corinthians very carefully,
554
00:27:51,140 --> 00:27:54,980
it does not say that the fire will try every man's works
555
00:27:54,980 --> 00:27:57,300
over a period of thousands of years.
556
00:27:57,300 --> 00:28:00,380
It says the day, the day, capital letter D,
557
00:28:00,380 --> 00:28:02,500
the day shall declare it.
558
00:28:02,500 --> 00:28:06,340
And so it's talking about the specific day
559
00:28:06,340 --> 00:28:09,260
when Jesus will come again in flaming fire
560
00:28:09,260 --> 00:28:11,360
and all his holy angels.
561
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:15,140
And at that moment, he will judge, he will discern,
562
00:28:15,140 --> 00:28:20,140
he will immediately assess the works
563
00:28:20,180 --> 00:28:21,260
that have been in our life.
564
00:28:21,260 --> 00:28:22,980
And he will determine whether or not
565
00:28:22,980 --> 00:28:25,100
it's wood, hay or stubble.
566
00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:29,620
And instantly that scripture is only dealing with Christians.
567
00:28:29,620 --> 00:28:32,180
It's not dealing with the unbelievers.
568
00:28:32,180 --> 00:28:36,460
It says, if any man build on this foundation,
569
00:28:36,460 --> 00:28:37,420
what foundation?
570
00:28:37,420 --> 00:28:39,380
No other foundation can be laid
571
00:28:39,380 --> 00:28:42,020
than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
572
00:28:42,020 --> 00:28:43,560
So it's talking about those who've tried
573
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,480
to build their life on Jesus,
574
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,620
but that some of them have built works
575
00:28:48,620 --> 00:28:49,740
that are wood, hay and stubble.
576
00:28:49,740 --> 00:28:53,860
They're lifeless, they're of no eternal value.
577
00:28:53,860 --> 00:28:56,980
And I would dare to say a lot of what's been done
578
00:28:56,980 --> 00:29:00,660
in denominational Christianity is wood, hay and stubble
579
00:29:00,660 --> 00:29:03,060
because it involves doctrines and practices
580
00:29:03,060 --> 00:29:05,700
and traditions that are not biblical.
581
00:29:05,700 --> 00:29:08,820
And so because of that, the works will be burned up,
582
00:29:08,820 --> 00:29:12,260
but if a person truly loves Jesus and is born again,
583
00:29:12,260 --> 00:29:15,420
they will be saved yet so as by fire.
584
00:29:15,420 --> 00:29:17,380
That's not talking about purgatory.
585
00:29:17,380 --> 00:29:20,380
It's talking about what we do for the Lord
586
00:29:20,380 --> 00:29:22,420
after we're saved.
587
00:29:22,420 --> 00:29:25,180
Yeah, it's very important for people to know
588
00:29:25,180 --> 00:29:27,420
why you believe what you believe,
589
00:29:27,420 --> 00:29:30,300
and also where did that belief come from?
590
00:29:30,300 --> 00:29:32,980
If you can trace that belief back to the Bible,
591
00:29:32,980 --> 00:29:37,060
the word of God, then you're in good standing.
592
00:29:37,060 --> 00:29:41,440
If you trace it back to history or tradition,
593
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,500
then you've got rocky ground and that is not a good thing.
594
00:29:44,500 --> 00:29:47,700
Always get back to the foundation of Jesus Christ
595
00:29:47,700 --> 00:29:50,140
and his word and then you're gonna be
596
00:29:50,140 --> 00:29:51,980
in a much, much better place for sure.
597
00:29:51,980 --> 00:29:54,100
Pastor Mike, any closing thoughts
598
00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:56,420
and then would you wrap up in prayer
599
00:29:56,420 --> 00:29:59,180
and pray for our Catholic brothers and sisters?
600
00:29:59,180 --> 00:30:01,500
Incidentally, that scripture I just quoted,
601
00:30:01,500 --> 00:30:02,980
I found it while you were talking
602
00:30:02,980 --> 00:30:06,540
this 1 Corinthians 3 verses 11 through 15.
603
00:30:06,540 --> 00:30:09,460
And you mentioned one word that I want to end with
604
00:30:09,460 --> 00:30:12,340
very concisely and that's the word tradition.
605
00:30:12,340 --> 00:30:16,400
The reason that Catholics can embrace many ideas,
606
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,340
many concepts that are not biblical
607
00:30:19,340 --> 00:30:20,900
is because of something called
608
00:30:20,900 --> 00:30:24,020
the three legs of Catholicism.
609
00:30:24,020 --> 00:30:27,780
It's depicted as a stool, a stool that has a top
610
00:30:27,780 --> 00:30:31,380
and three legs of equal height of equal importance.
611
00:30:31,380 --> 00:30:34,220
And the three legs are sacred scripture,
612
00:30:34,220 --> 00:30:37,100
sacred tradition and the magisterium.
613
00:30:37,100 --> 00:30:38,740
And the magisterium is a word
614
00:30:38,740 --> 00:30:40,620
meaning the hierarchy of the church,
615
00:30:40,620 --> 00:30:42,300
the Pope and all the bishops.
616
00:30:42,300 --> 00:30:46,260
Well, if sacred tradition includes an idea,
617
00:30:46,260 --> 00:30:49,260
concept or practice that is not found in the Bible,
618
00:30:49,260 --> 00:30:50,380
that's okay.
619
00:30:50,380 --> 00:30:54,080
According to Catholicism, that's of equal authority
620
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,120
and equally believable if it's established
621
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:58,620
by the magisterium.
622
00:30:58,620 --> 00:31:01,440
And so that's why they can have many beliefs
623
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,400
that are not necessarily found in the Bible.
624
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,780
And I would just urge anyone who's a Catholic
625
00:31:07,780 --> 00:31:09,260
who's listening to this,
626
00:31:09,260 --> 00:31:12,320
I want you to know that my whole motive
627
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,020
in making you address or encouraging you,
628
00:31:16,020 --> 00:31:16,860
I'll put it that way,
629
00:31:16,860 --> 00:31:19,740
encouraging you to address these issues
630
00:31:19,740 --> 00:31:23,180
and to examine these concepts and ideas
631
00:31:23,180 --> 00:31:25,940
is so that you can sift your way
632
00:31:25,940 --> 00:31:28,780
through the things that have prevented you
633
00:31:28,780 --> 00:31:31,820
from having a genuine encounter with the Lord.
634
00:31:31,820 --> 00:31:35,200
I did not receive the Holy Spirit when I was confirmed,
635
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,100
but when I was 20 years old,
636
00:31:38,100 --> 00:31:39,900
I got baptized in the Holy Spirit
637
00:31:39,900 --> 00:31:41,180
and began speaking in tongues.
638
00:31:41,180 --> 00:31:44,460
And it was literally like heaven on earth.
639
00:31:44,460 --> 00:31:47,620
That moment was ecstasy beyond description.
640
00:31:47,620 --> 00:31:50,820
I want you precious Catholics
641
00:31:50,820 --> 00:31:53,060
to experience being born again,
642
00:31:53,060 --> 00:31:54,660
like I did when I was 19,
643
00:31:54,660 --> 00:31:57,180
to experience being filled with the Holy Spirit,
644
00:31:57,180 --> 00:31:58,900
like I did when I was 20.
645
00:31:58,900 --> 00:32:00,660
That's my heart's cry for you.
646
00:32:00,660 --> 00:32:02,460
And so I'm praying right now,
647
00:32:02,460 --> 00:32:05,340
Father God in the name of Jesus,
648
00:32:05,340 --> 00:32:08,580
especially if there are Catholic brothers and sisters
649
00:32:08,580 --> 00:32:11,460
listening to this presentation,
650
00:32:11,460 --> 00:32:14,360
I pray that you will open their eyes to the truth
651
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,580
and reveal yourself to them
652
00:32:16,580 --> 00:32:19,080
in a very powerful and profound way
653
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,980
and that they will come into a greater depth
654
00:32:21,980 --> 00:32:24,180
of a personal relationship with you
655
00:32:24,180 --> 00:32:26,080
than they've ever had before.
656
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,540
May there be a great deliverance
657
00:32:28,540 --> 00:32:31,900
from any beliefs that are non-biblical
658
00:32:31,900 --> 00:32:33,620
and may they see the importance
659
00:32:33,620 --> 00:32:37,320
of the foundation of the word of God being in their life
660
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,600
at the expense of any other beliefs being forsaken
661
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,580
that are not biblically based.
662
00:32:42,580 --> 00:32:46,300
Let that be the major step forward
663
00:32:46,300 --> 00:32:49,180
that many of those listening to this podcast make
664
00:32:49,180 --> 00:32:50,900
in Jesus' name, amen.
665
00:32:50,900 --> 00:32:52,540
Amen and amen.
666
00:32:52,540 --> 00:32:54,780
Pastor Mike Shreve, it's great to have you here
667
00:32:54,780 --> 00:32:58,340
on Charisma News to talk about this new book,
668
00:32:58,340 --> 00:33:01,260
the beliefs of the Catholic Church.
669
00:33:01,260 --> 00:33:05,700
And I wanna encourage people to go to catholicswithlove.org
670
00:33:05,700 --> 00:33:08,340
for more information from Pastor Mike.
671
00:33:09,700 --> 00:33:11,780
Definitely he's got some great resources
672
00:33:11,780 --> 00:33:12,980
that you need to check out.
673
00:33:12,980 --> 00:33:14,260
So Pastor Mike, thank you so much
674
00:33:14,260 --> 00:33:17,380
for joining us here on Charisma News.
675
00:33:17,380 --> 00:33:18,740
It's always a blessing, John.
676
00:33:18,740 --> 00:33:20,140
You're a great brother in the Lord.
677
00:33:20,140 --> 00:33:20,980
I appreciate you.
678
00:33:20,980 --> 00:33:21,820
Well, thank you.
679
00:33:21,820 --> 00:33:22,660
Bless you.