Rebranding Christianity with Mike Hogan (S:3 - Ep 65)

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Welcome to Exploring the Marketplace Show, where we're creating a conversation for what

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God's doing to Christians in the marketplace.

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I'm Sean Boles, and my co-host is Bob Hasson.

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We interview everyday influencers, business leaders, and entrepreneurs from all areas

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of industry, exposing you to powerful stories of what God's doing to people just like you.

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We're also sharing our thoughts about what God's doing in finance, business, entertainment,

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and politics.

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Come join the conversation now.

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Welcome to Exploring the Marketplace.

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I'm Bob Hasson with my friend Sean Boles.

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Sean, who do we have on the show today?

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I love our show.

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I love Exploring the Marketplace because we're going to talk to people from all kinds of

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backgrounds.

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Today, we have Mike Hogan and him and two other authors released a recovery brand in Christianity.

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There's no one better to talk about this than Mike because he is a business executive

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and brand marketing expert and has led some of the world's largest companies as the chief

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marketing officer and brand strategy consultant, including Frito-Lay, GameStop.

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I love them, Microsoft, Campus Crusade, and Feed the Children.

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He and his wife Brenda are living in Dallas.

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They are just really plugged into what they're doing in their local church, but they're also

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plugged into what's going on in Christianity at large as well as what's happening in branding

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and marketing.

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Obviously, he's one of the world leaders in that subject.

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I love when we get to talk to people like this because I think that branding and marketing

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is one of the secret sauces that God's going to give the church identity to.

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When you look back at some of the greats like Billy Graham, who's just one of my heroes

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of the faith, he started his crusades here in Los Angeles, Bob, where I'm at.

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He actually hired a branding marketing company to train them and say, how can we bring Christianity

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to everyone's household?

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They taught him to do commercials for his very first crusade to try it.

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They spent the same marketing budget as a commercial agency.

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They did all these commercials on television and it filled the stadium where they had to

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do multiple nights and there's tens of thousands of people saved because they use the tools

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that are available to bring Christ into fullness.

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I think marketing and branding is so important for companies and so important for individuals

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and it's so important for the church.

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I love that they're creating this conversation, but we're going to hear Mike's story.

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We're going to go deep with Mike's story and hear how we got involved with this and how

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his faith affected his career up next on Exploring the Marketplace.

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My Translating God book, which is going to teach you how to hear God's voice in real

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If you get this right now, we're going to give you the masterclass, which is, I mean,

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Well, welcome back.

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We're here with Mike Hogan.

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Welcome to the show, Mike.

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Thank you.

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Appreciate you having me on.

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I'm so glad we have you on because we don't often talk to people who are like branding

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and marketing gurus.

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Maybe that's a wrong word for Christian show, but I just think it's so amazing, your experience,

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your breadth of experience.

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And so many of the industries, I'm looking from Frito Lay to GameStop to Microsoft to

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Campus Crusade for Christ.

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It goes on and on and on, where you've been a strategist and a consultant in all these

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different companies.

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And what people are looking for right now because the market has been so disrupted is

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how especially Christians, like if you own a business or if you're an entrepreneur, how

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do I look at the marketing strategically?

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And you're right in the middle of that conversation, but in the mainstream world, which I love

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so much.

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But I want to talk about your faith and how it really impacted your career because when

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I was reading through our show notes, we've had a little bit of time to talk beforehand.

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It looks like the trajectory of where you were trying to head versus where you ended

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up, which was even a greater result than you could have probably led yourself.

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It looks like there was a lot of surrender moments and a lot of interpreting your journey

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through a lens of faith.

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And I think that's so valuable for some of the reasons why we do this show is to talk

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to people like you might just say, take us on the journey.

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How did you get to where you're at?

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These are incredible companies you've consulted.

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You've had an incredible career and I know it's still happening, but take us on the journey.

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How did this start for you?

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How did your faith play into this career?

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Sure.

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First of all, I did not grow up in the church.

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My family sort of nominally went to church when I was young and then this was the 60s

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and my parents got divorced and the church didn't really have much of a place for a divorced

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woman.

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So my mom stopped going to church and we all stopped going.

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And it wasn't until I got to college that I became a believer.

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Something enough, this girl that I was dating from high school at the time happened to invite

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me to this church in Chicago called Willow Creek, which was a school meeting in a movie

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theater.

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So there's a whole interesting story there.

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And it's one of the, nothing like, how could I have ever guessed that this was going to

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happen?

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And I think, so the first part of my career, I was a relatively new Christian and I was

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kind of sorting this kind of stuff out and I think at the time, obviously you know things,

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you think you know things a lot more clearly probably when you're 20 than when you're in

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your 50s or 60s, right?

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And I was certainly no exception to that.

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And I think what I was expecting right was these sort of big moments of reckoning.

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Somebody is going to ask you to do this thing.

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And by the way, I've had friends who've had that.

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They were running company and somebody came in and said, I need you to change the books

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and you know something that was clearly illegal and a good friend of mine, you know, left

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a job over that.

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But for the most part, that wasn't really my experience.

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What I think I learned was for me, it was what I like to call a thousand small moments

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of reckoning, not big one.

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And it reminds me a lot of when like Elijah is, you know, he's had this sort of big moment,

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you know, with the fire and the prophets and then he's in the desert and God comes to him

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as a small voice.

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And so that's sort of been my right experience.

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And so as it happens, I guess what I would say about the whole thing is God's will is

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almost always completely clear to me comma in retrospect.

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You know, at the moment, right, so for me, it was, you know, finding the sort of a calm

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in myself to say, you know, what's the direction here?

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What should I be doing?

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And after the fact, God makes clear to me why this happened.

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And so I would say there's there's there's a lot of, you know, left turns and right

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turns there.

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And I kind of liken my life to a river that has the bends and the turns and so much of

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my effort when you really come down to it is is been about trying to make the curves of

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the river into a straight path, you know, so you can be goal oriented or get there faster

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or whatever the thing is.

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But God has his own plan and what I've learned to do over the years, to some extent, is to

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be able to enjoy, you know, what's around the next bend in the river, which which doesn't

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mean not doing anything, right?

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But it means, you know, holding these things with with an open hand.

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Well, it's it's interesting, Mike, that you've been in some of the largest companies in the

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world.

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And and as your as your career has ebbed and flowed and gone down that river, what has

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it been like in the church with the notion we talk about on this show a lot, the sacred

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versus the secular.

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And and we believe a certain way that I think you do talk to us about how I added that one.

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So let me interrupt real fast, Bob, because I think, especially with Bob's question of

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asking the kind of line between sacred and secular, I also think looking back at your

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career because you're a brand specialist, you're a marketing consultant, and that's

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the missing ingredient of most churches and movements.

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That must have been somewhat frustrating at times.

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So I'd love to hear your experience.

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And I know Bob does too.

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That's why that's a question.

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I think you're a unique person to answer this question, because that very area that you

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do the most is probably the biggest felt need in the church at large.

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Sure.

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Sure.

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Well, first of all, thanks for asking the question.

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It's really interesting.

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I was I was watching your show, you know, the the episode with Mark Batterson and and

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Chris, he's a pastor, right?

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Full fantastic.

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But he was making sort of the same point of Anki called the false dichotomy right between

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the secular and the sacred.

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And I've always felt the same way of if God's calling me, that it's not sort of like, what

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do I do on Sunday and what do I do the rest of the week?

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It's particularly of interest to me because as we started this book, you know, to be honest,

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a number of people were kind of like, well, branding and the church, you know, because

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no one knows it yet.

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Oh, yeah.

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The book is called rebranding Christianity.

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And I think I think to some people, the notion of even thinking about Christianity as a brand

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is somehow tarnished, right?

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The idea there.

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And so I need to say up front, you know, as we say this, I realize, right, that there

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are a lot of people out there who would call themselves branding people that are doing,

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you know, to think of crazy car dealers or whatever.

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And in fact, the story when my son was about six or seven years old, and I he was watching

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TV one day, and he saw some toy or something advertised.

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And he said, dad, is that true or is it just marketing?

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And you know, I was a little bit offended by it because I was running marketing for,

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you know, at the time.

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And but when we say when we say rebranding, what we what we really are talking about is

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is branding done well.

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And and it's in branding done well is about making and keeping promises, right?

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And we think about it.

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Brands that that are successful over time and that people trust are brands that make

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promises about things that are important in our lives and then keep those promises and

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so trust builds and grows.

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And you think, well, shouldn't that be true of the church, right?

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So from our perspective, the brand, if you will, meaning what comes to mind when you

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hear the name Christianity or Christian should be, you know, Jesus is charged of, you know,

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love one another as I have loved you.

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And by this, all people will know that you're my disciples.

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So in other words, we should be known first and foremost for the way in which we love

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people.

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And we could cite all kinds of polling data, which says that's probably not what we're

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known for.

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I happen to be in the sort of Southern evangelical church, and we're particularly not well known

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for that.

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So when we say rebranding, we're not saying, hey, you know, the message of Jesus didn't

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work, let's find another one.

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What we're saying is let's call people back to what this brand is really about.

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And in fact, in the years in which I was a consultant, so often what we were doing is

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not coming in and finding a new thing.

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It was meeting with people and saying, hey, you know, this is what your brand was about.

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And people really love that.

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And it was important when you did it well.

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But you know what?

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You stopped doing that.

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You know, your hotel got dirty, or your restaurant started giving that service or whatever.

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And I feel, you know, there's a whole lot of reasons why the church has gotten sidetracked

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into other things, be it politics or cultural issues or what have you.

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And so what we're really saying in the book is bringing the church back to what the brand,

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what Jesus established the brand as 2000 years ago.

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So from our perspective, it's bringing together, right, the original message from Jesus of

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what is the brand about with Dear Point Modern Principles say, how can we apply this in a

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way that would help us to recapture what the brand is really about?

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Well, I just think it's so interesting that kind of like, it's the ultimate conversation

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piece in the second versus sacred because you're taking your, you know, you and your

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two writing partners are taking your decades of experience and you're actually applying

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it to a book to say, can we change the face of Christianity?

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Can we change the way people think about it?

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And I think that there's, there was some words back in the 80s from some of the top pastors

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who said that Christianity is going to change in one generation, the future.

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The next great revival, the last great one was the Jesus revolution or Jesus people.

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The next great one will be where people identify Christ for who he really is.

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And I think we're, I just am excited your books coming out now and just that you're emerging

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outside of your career in this as well.

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Because I think of Jesus revolution being released in 2023, I think of the movie that

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actually spoke to what it could look like to see a generation changed, you know, with

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the least likely people group.

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And it was all based on love.

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It was based on people started to feel accepted and loved and kind of the shame based message

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wasn't relevant anymore, but there was still a holding the truth.

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So I just, I think I just want to, that's my own rhetoric, but I'm going to go back

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into your story some because let's talk about when some of the moments like break us down

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to like a moment when God was really kind of leading you a different this message came

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and this book came because you've walked alongside companies, but also God has rebranded what

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faith is to you.

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And he's really helped you to be a vocal leader in this.

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Like, let's go back and tell us some, tell us some stories.

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Tell us some stories, Mike.

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Sure.

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Sure.

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Tell us your life.

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Yeah.

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Well, you know, it kind of fits in with, you know, God's always will is always clear

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to me in retrospect.

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And it certainly had the moments.

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I can remember I was in my earlier mid thirties and I'd had a long and, you know, successful

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career at Pepsi Co.

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I was the VP of international marketing and I chose to leave and take this next opportunity

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with a company called Dean Foods, which was, you know, a big company really growing.

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And you know, after a couple of years, it sort of became clear that, you know, that

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was not going to be the thing for me.

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And you know, you can imagine, right, you've had this, you're experiencing this sort of

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derailment for the first time, what am I going to do?

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And I did what you would think I would do.

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I interviewed with other companies and a couple of opportunities came up that were different

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places, you know, Canada or Pittsburgh or Michigan or whatever.

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And at the same time, I was having very interesting, I was having a conversation, a dialogue here

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with one of my pastors who was not my senior pastor at the time, but it was actually Jeff

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Jones, who's now my senior pastor, who was the associate pastor at the time.

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And we're just sort of, you know, navigating this together and like, what, you know, I

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am not really sure what I should do.

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And he said in his sort of, you know, unique, challenging way, he said, well, I think God's

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got you at work here, you know, right here in Dallas.

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And I was, you know, kind of like, you know, okay, but I don't have a job, you know.

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So anyway, I ultimately made the decision not to pursue any of those jobs.

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I was supposed to be on a plane to some place for an interview when I called up the head

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hunter who was a very senior guy that a company called Spencer Stewart, which is a big search

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firm.

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And I said, Hey, you know, I'm not, I'm not on the plane.

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You know, he's like, Oh, you know, are you sick?

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Did you have a car accident?

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I said, No, I said, I, I'm not there.

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I said, I don't, I'm not sure what I'm going to do next.

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But I think it involves staying in Dallas and continuing to volunteer at my church, you

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know, which of course I don't get paid for.

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And I, I literally was expecting him to say, you're a big idiot and don't ever call me

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again.

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But he didn't, you know, he was very, he was silent for probably 30 seconds.

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And then he said, he said, you know, Mike, he said, not, not everybody that I work with

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knows this, but I'm a believer and he happened to be in Chicago, happened to go to Willow

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Creek.

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And he said, he said, you know, I appreciate the choice that you're making.

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I know it's, it's, it's got to be a little bit scary for you right now.

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But if you ever need any help, don't hesitate to call me.

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Wow.

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And, and he and I have had, you know, multiple conversations about that over the years.

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And so here I am, right, not knowing what's going to happen, literally less than two weeks

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later I get a call from another good friend of mine who was running a very successful

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consulting business whose name happens to be Dwight Jusson, who happens to be the third

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author of the book.

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So you can see a lot of points of interest here.

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And he said, Hey, have you ever thought about being a consultant because you'd be a great

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consultant and my business does this, but if you were here, we could do all this other

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stuff.

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And I ended up joining with him for like the next six or seven years, I helped with business

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and had just incredible opportunities to interact with some of the world's biggest brands and

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some great people and travel the whole world courtesy of Microsoft and, and had some great

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experiences and it was, there was like, there was a 0% chance, right, that three years earlier

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I could have said, Oh, well, this would have been the natural next move or this would be

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what, even if somebody had said to me, what would success look like to you?

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And that's, that to me is one of the biggest stories because, you know, what I can reflect

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on is a time when, you know, I had no clear sense of, you know, personal vision of what

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was going to happen next or what I need to do.

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I wasn't feeling in control.

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All I was trying to do was, was follow the voice of God.

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But even that it wasn't as though God had said, you know, here's a picture of a piece

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of land in the big temple I want you to build.

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It was just sort of, it was, it was almost like a whisper of a voice.

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But in retrospect, it seems absolutely clear to me that that's where God wanted me to go

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then.

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And he just, he just needed to sort of nudge me off of my comfortable sort of corporate

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path that I was on because he had bigger and better things in mind for me.

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I love how pragmatic you are.

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And it seems like hearing God's voice has been something you've gotten used, you've

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got, you've learned and the miraculous seems like a series of events for you.

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I want to come back to rebranding Christianity because one of the things that I've noticed

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is when people are talking about themselves being Christians, they're using different

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language now, something like I'm a follower of Jesus or I'm a believer or, you know, I

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come from the Christian worldview.

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And I think the reason that people talk like that sometimes is because saying I'm a born-again

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Christian or I'm a, is, is sort of hard for other people to hear and people are trying

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to couch what they really believe.

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And I think it's so interesting that your book, Rebranding Christianity, is out because

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what would you say to, to, to heal that sort of gulf that people are feeling?

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Yeah, that's a really, that's a really great question.

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I think a couple of thoughts there.

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One is, you know, we've been asked the question, particularly around the word evangelical, right?

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Is that a word you even want to use anymore?

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And, you know, there's, there's not surprisingly, I'm going to take a pragmatic approach to

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this, but I think, you know, there's lots of words we can use.

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We tend to, at our church, we tend to use the word Jesus follower.

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And I think if you were, if you were to look at sort of surveys and such, you would say

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words like evangelical tend to bring up a lot of negative connotations, but not surprisingly,

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Jesus is still a pretty popular guy.

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I mean, I think even people who, who wouldn't call themselves Christians would say, I don't

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believe in Jesus.

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I'd say, yeah, but, but I, I know who he was.

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I know what he stands for or love.

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That's pretty good.

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And the effect they'd probably say, I wish the church acted more like Jesus.

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You know, there's that famous quote from, you know, from Gandhi, where he said something

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like, you know, I like your Jesus, but I don't like your Christians, right?

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And I think that's the, I think that's the challenge that we have.

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I was, you know, interesting.

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I was having a conversation with a friend this morning.

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He's a, a sort of a business friend and fellow board member.

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He happens to live in Nashville.

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And he was saying, you know, it's so funny because when you're in Nashville and you

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meet someone in the first 10 minutes, it almost invariably comes up, where do you go to church?

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And I said, yeah.

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And, and most people either go to church or feel guilty about not going to church.

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He said, yeah, but then 10 years ago we lived in San Francisco and in San Francisco, it

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never comes up.

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Most people don't go to church.

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And if they do, they're embarrassed to tell you.

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I think it, I think it just reflects what's, what's happened, you know, what's happened

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to the brand.

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I, you know, I'm, I'm very flexible on, on terms.

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And I think one of the things that I think is, is, is, is helpful is if we can start

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using terms that would allow people to sort of experience more of what the brand is really

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about.

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And I think to think that somebody that could come to your church or in some way be served

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by your church and have a positive experience would be put off from ever having that because,

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you know, we were careless about some word we use, which got used the wrong way.

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So I think it's just a part of brand evolution.

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I, I don't know what the dominant sort of movement will be in the church in the near

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future in the U S, but I don't think it's going to be called evangelical.

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Wow.

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That's a profound thought because people, it is interesting because it feels like there's

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Republicans, there's Democrats, there's evangelicals.

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It doesn't feel like a Christian movement anymore.

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It feels like a political party to some degree from a lot of people.

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And yet you can say that about somebody who believes we're sustainable to Israel, they're

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automatically Zionists, which is a terrible term right now.

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It's running around by the media, but there's certain theological truths behind it for those

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of us who may believe that way.

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So it is really hard because we're dealing with belief structures and the older you get,

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the more you want to define those because like Mike Johnson, who's the leader of the

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Republican Congress right now, he says, I'm coming out of a biblical world.

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You know, when he gets persecuted for it, you know, other people and other parties who

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don't understand that that could be a good thing.

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And so we're at this place and culture where there's so many wars and divisions over terminology.

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And so when you're talking about rebranding, a lot of people are afraid that you're going

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to lose the truth with rebranding.

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So how do you address keeping the truth in the midst of the rebranding?

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Because some people will say, well, I'm not a Zionist, but I stand with Israel, but I

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stand with them this way, but I'm not, and they're saying the same thing, but they don't

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like the terms anymore.

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So they're just throwing them out.

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So how do you deal with the fact that like we want to be relevant to culture, but we

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don't want to be relevant to culture more than we're relevant to God?

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No, that's a really good question.

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And we get asked that a lot.

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I think, you know, first off, I think in, you know, my pastor, Jeff, he probably does

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a better job of addressing this than I do.

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But the answer is pretty simple.

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It's, you know, Jesus was full of grace and full of truth, not, you know, sort of half

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and half, right?

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And I think at the end of the day, what we would say is that it's not gracious to tell

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people something that's not the truth.

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So we wouldn't want to compromise, you know, what we believe truth is biblically, but at

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the same time, it's, you know, the call is to be gracious.

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His expression that he uses to describe it is a wide welcome to a narrow path.

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And, you know, what we, and, you know, you think about Jesus, right?

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Jesus was known as, you know, what the friend of drunkards and sinners.

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And it was meant as an insult, but the truth is it was true, right?

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And I think the mistake people made is they said, he's associating with these people,

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he's accepting these people.

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Therefore, he must be doing what they're doing and he must agree with them.

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And that's not true at all.

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I think what we're saying is we're called to accept everyone.

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We're not a call to agree, right, with every point of view.

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And you know, one of the things that we found very interesting and in some ways surprising,

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you know, with the release of this book is, you know, there are clearly some people in

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the church who, and I say the church being broadly, not just our church, but, you know,

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are a little bit hostile to it.

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What he, you know, has come from people who are, you know, Jesus followers who become

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really disillusioned in the church.

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And the, if you're familiar with the term, you know, ex-angelical, a lot of people would

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call themselves ex-angelicals, you know, meaning that they still believe, but they've kind

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of walked away from that description.

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And what they've said is we appreciate that somebody's out there, you know, in some ways,

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we're not apologizing for the church, but we are saying, hey, the church is really not

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what it needs to be.

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We need to do a much better job of loving people.

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And it's, and there's so many people out there that have been hurt by the church.

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And that's been the warmest welcome that we've gotten.

421
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That's great.

422
00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:24,800
Well, Mike, as we wrap up, where can people find your book?

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And is there a website?

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Sure.

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00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,040
Also about how to get ahold of you guys.

426
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:30,040
Yeah, sure.

427
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:34,320
So the book is available on Amazon, it's the best place to get it.

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We also have a website, the website's called rebrandingchristianity.org.

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And there is also a podcast, if you go to Apple Podcasts or wherever you go to get podcasts,

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it's called rebrandingchristianity.

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And I think there's about 12 or 13 episodes out there now, which kind of walks through

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the background and then the book.

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And then we're kind of getting to the point now where what we'd really like to do is not

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just talk about the book, what we'd like to do is be a place where all kinds of people

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who've written their own books or have their own shows, whatever, but have this point of

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view can come and voice their support for where the church could be going.

437
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:15,920
That's so exciting.

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And I'm reading just one of the lines of this, Christianity is perhaps the most powerful

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00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,960
brand in the world and offers the biggest and best promises ever made, God's unconditional

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love and salvation.

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It's so true.

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And I think that this is such a timely message for 2024.

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It's just so important that we get that vision for what Christianity is supposed to be and

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what it can be, because we're in the most divided state the world's ever been.

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And so it's time for rebranding.

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It's time for restructuring time for rethinking.

447
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And that should empower people.

448
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There's a lot of reformers right now.

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You guys are reformers thinking how do we take this to the real place it's supposed to be

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in our generation, not just settle for status quo.

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So we so enjoyed your time with us.

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I'm going to encourage all of you to get the book rebranding Christianity.

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It's out now.

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00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,640
And next is final thoughts with Sean and Bob.

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I'm Sean Boles.

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I'm going to invite you to our spiritual growth Academy online where you can attend a four

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00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:08,840
week class or an event every month, plus our back catalog is available to you as well on

458
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,400
spiritual gifts, especially hearing God's voice and also a deeper connection to the Holy

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00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,680
Spirit and how to walk with him in real ways in the days we're living in right now.

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00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,040
Come join us at spiritual growth Academy by going to bullsministries.com and clicking

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00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,720
on the Academy button.

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00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,920
Now it's time for final thoughts with Sean and Bob.

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Bob, I miss it's a pretty incredible interview.

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Just his experience and what he's talking about is huge.

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And it's really reforming.

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I thought the same thing.

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And over the years, you and I have been walking with God for a long time and we've seen the

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hits that Christianity takes both politically and in society as believers just continue

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to be humans, like you say on the review, to the point where sometimes it's uncomfortable

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to say I'm a Christian.

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And I liked how pragmatic he was and the fact that they're looking for another way to bring

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Christ to the forefront.

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And I thought they did a really good job.

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Well, and I think of it like, you know, for me personally, because I grew up as a second

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generation Christian, so I felt like I had more responsibility to get this thing right.

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You know, my relationship with God, right?

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But I also went through a period of time where I was like, I don't know what we called a

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Christian because Christianity is so messed up.

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And I got over that time because God's love is so good.

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And I remember him just showing me like, Sean, one moment of my love, my authentic love expressed

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through your compassion, your passion for me, your passion for people rebrands Christianity

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to everyone around you, to everyone you touch.

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And they don't remember the failures of this TV evangelist.

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So they don't remember the failures of their church or where they were hurt here.

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They just are present with my love.

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And I've seen that with foster care where kids have been completely abused at their

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home and then they get into a good foster care situation and unfortunately it's not enough.

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But when they do, when there's good Christians who are like fostering kids and they have

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one moment with what a healthy family looks like, they, that just, they revert to that.

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It's like they're wiring is so our wiring for God is undeniable.

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And when we express something that causes people to feel that wiring activate, it's just,

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they forget all the evil, they forget all the bad.

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They don't, they don't hold God accountable for what this pastor did or this person did.

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And I think that that should give us a lot of courage as business people that we may go

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into a situation where people say, I hate doing business with Christians and they're

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like, oh, I'm a Christian.

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And you just realize like you have the opportunity now to rebrand that by your love, your character,

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your integrity, without even using words, just by being right, you know, just by righteous,

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by walking with God.

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So I think we need to not be afraid of Christianity's bad, tarnished reputation because Christ's

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reputation is impeccable.

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It is interesting because if you just walk around trying to do the right thing over and

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over and over again, your character shines before you and people see it and people will

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ask you, like I've been asked so many times, are you religious?

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And what they mean is like, do you have a relationship with God?

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And I always say, well, I'm not religious, but I have a relationship with God.

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And that seems to satisfy the question.

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But I think what we need to do is just try to continue to try to do the right thing.

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And when we don't be vulnerable enough to apologize and say, hey, I'm sorry, I've made

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it so.

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And people really, really are drawn to that Jesus in you who causes us to want to do the

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right thing.

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Well, we solved some problems of the whole church today, which is great.

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00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:40,000
And if you're going to join the conversation, please join Bob Hasen and I online on our

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social media as Bob has an active social media on Instagram.

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00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,320
I have one as well on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube.

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I would encourage you to join us there.

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Join the conversation at YouTube.

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00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:52,240
And I also have another show called Sean Bull's Show, which is a commentary show where we

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00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,080
talk about current news and current events.

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00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,160
And Bob, you need to come back on the show soon because we talk about things in the business

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world.

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We talk about things in the political world and culture.

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It's so much fun.

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We will see you on the next episode of Explore the Marketplace.

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See you next time.

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00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,240
Thanks for exploring what God is doing in the marketplace with us.

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We have amazing resources for you at our website with free videos, taking online classes,

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00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,440
those that are online school, spiritual growth academy, or get one of our books, including

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00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,480
the one Bob and I offered together, wired to here.

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00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,600
We have lots of ways to connect with you.

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00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:24,200
Come visit us on social media.

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00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:29,800
Just look for at Sean Bulls or at Bob Hasen or visit bullsm ministries.com.

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00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,080
This show is made possible by listeners just like you.

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00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,120
Become a partner or donate now to become part of our team.

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00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,360
If you enjoyed today's episode, share it on your socials or help us review it on the

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00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,160
podcast server you found us on.

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See you next time.