Soul Care, Mindy Caliguire's Story

1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,360
Hey friends, welcome to the Herb God Story podcast where you will always hear a good

2
00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:08,400
story to encourage and inspire you in your walk with the Lord.

3
00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:10,480
You'll be so glad you tuned in.

4
00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:14,760
I'm your host, Jodie Chiricosta, ministry leader at Somebody Cares America, an international

5
00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,720
author and traveler on this journey with Jesus.

6
00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:24,360
God cares deeply about the overlooked and hurting among us, and He has a very special

7
00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,440
place in His heart for widows and orphans.

8
00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:32,200
Over and over again in Scripture, He directs us to care for widows and orphans, which is

9
00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,880
why Somebody Cares created the Widow and Orphan Fund.

10
00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:41,680
As a company together, we can do so much to take care of the special needs of those He's

11
00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,160
put in the care of our ministry partners around the world.

12
00:00:45,160 --> 00:00:51,560
Recently, we funded the delivery of essential care packages to five destitute women in Africa

13
00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:55,120
who are struggling to put food on their table for their children.

14
00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,000
And while this is only temporary help, efforts are underway to provide monthly assistance

15
00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,500
to them while they seek employment in a secure living situation.

16
00:01:03,500 --> 00:01:08,120
Because of the gifts of so many of you dear friends, these precious women know that God

17
00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:12,960
has heard their cries and is answering with tangible help.

18
00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:17,400
Please pray about joining our number with a gift at hergodstory.org and click on Help

19
00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:18,720
Now.

20
00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,600
We even accept many forms of cryptocurrency.

21
00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:26,640
In John 15, God shares some startling truth.

22
00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,320
Verses 1-5 in the New King James Version reads,

23
00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:34,160
I am the true vine and my father is the vine dresser.

24
00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,840
Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he takes away.

25
00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:43,080
And every branch that bears fruit, he prunes that it may bear more fruit.

26
00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,800
You are already clean because of the word which I've spoken to you.

27
00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,380
Abide in me and I in you.

28
00:01:49,380 --> 00:01:54,120
Because the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you

29
00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:56,200
unless you abide in me.

30
00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,160
I am the vine, you are the branches.

31
00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:03,480
He who abides in me and I in him bears much fruit.

32
00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:09,120
For without me, you can do nothing.

33
00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:15,520
Modern translations use the word remain in place of abide, but I like the powerful description

34
00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:16,520
of abide.

35
00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,240
It's the life that Christ calls us to.

36
00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:24,560
Christ's New World Dictionary defines it as to stand fast, remain, go on being, to

37
00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,200
await, stay, reside.

38
00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,600
The American Heritage Bible, a dictionary says, to wait patiently for.

39
00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,640
But how can any of us have time to do that?

40
00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:40,160
Paul Schappell, in his book, Abiding in Christ, articulates our dilemma, saying, we live in

41
00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,760
a fast-paced society.

42
00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:44,360
We're used to quick results.

43
00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:49,520
It seems that much of our time and money is spent trying to save time, to do things faster,

44
00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,960
more efficient, and with less effort.

45
00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,160
We hurry through our daily tasks so we could move on to something more important.

46
00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,720
Our to-do lists are longer than the amount of time we have to get them done, and there's

47
00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,120
seemingly no end in sight.

48
00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,960
Abide is not part of our modern vocabulary.

49
00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:14,560
New people abide anywhere with anyone in today's culture who has time to abide.

50
00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:20,320
But if we read on in John 15, we realize our very life depends on it.

51
00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,520
My guest, Mindy Caliguire, has learned this truth.

52
00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:29,680
Mindy is the co-founder and president of Soul Care, having served in executive leadership

53
00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,320
at GLU and the Willow Creek Association.

54
00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:37,560
She speaks and advises into organizations like Compassion International, the National

55
00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,600
Christian Foundation, and many churches and ministries around the world.

56
00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:47,680
And she's written books, including Discovering Soul Care, Spiritual Friendship, Stir, and

57
00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:49,600
Ignite Your Soul.

58
00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,080
Mindy lives in Colorado with her loving husband.

59
00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:57,560
They have three married adult children, one grandchild, and three dogs.

60
00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:58,560
Welcome, Mindy.

61
00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,720
Oh, thank you so much.

62
00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,600
I'm delighted to be with you and to be with those who are listening today.

63
00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:06,600
It's awesome.

64
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:07,440
Thank you.

65
00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,880
Mindy being introduced to us, having three dogs now, because we just got two more.

66
00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,280
And it's a little bit crazy around here right now.

67
00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,480
Well, we're both dog lovers, so I just had to mention it.

68
00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:17,480
I love it.

69
00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:18,480
I'm glad you did.

70
00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,640
So Mindy, what were your early years like, and how did they shape your relationship with

71
00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:23,640
Christ?

72
00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:28,960
My early years were actually kind of a lot of that kind of chaos with puppies and extra

73
00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,560
people around all the time.

74
00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,760
I actually grew up in a large family.

75
00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:41,200
I'm the oldest of seven children, and my parents were from Western New York area.

76
00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,760
My dad had gone to graduate school.

77
00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,840
We joked that I was a honeymoon baby.

78
00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:54,200
Was the first of this tribe that was significant in my own sort of development, what shaped

79
00:04:54,200 --> 00:05:01,120
me in terms of my love for community, my love for a little bit of chaos, and a sense of

80
00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,880
home that matters.

81
00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:09,920
And then spiritually, the sort of tenor of our family was heavily marked by my parents

82
00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,680
being very devoted in their Catholic faith.

83
00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:21,040
And so they were early front runners in the folk mass movement in the mid-60s.

84
00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:25,760
My dad was one of the first people playing a guitar at the front of a Catholic church.

85
00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:30,960
And then they got very involved in the marriage encounter movement, which has helped people

86
00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,240
all over the world.

87
00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:41,600
But I would say there was a time in the mid-70s when they encountered Jesus in a more dramatic

88
00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:42,600
way.

89
00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:47,160
My mom had been invited to a neighborhood Bible study, a bunch of women, some of whom

90
00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:52,560
I think were in a Baptist church or who knows where, but she had never read firsthand, even

91
00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:56,320
though she'd gone to all these Catholic schools and been faithfully attending mass and all

92
00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:00,760
these other things, had never really been encouraged to read the Bible for herself.

93
00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:06,400
She just was so captivated with the person of Jesus and began her own faith journey.

94
00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,000
And my dad was a developmental biologist.

95
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:15,400
And so his approach to the Bible was absorb it, understand everything, and he was as likely

96
00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:20,920
to quote something from Amos as Ephesians.

97
00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:25,760
He just absorbed it and saw it all as a whole.

98
00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,520
And so for me growing up, it was a very integrated faith.

99
00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:38,000
If we had to sell the house and the market wasn't good, my parents would invite the kids

100
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,040
too fast and pray with them.

101
00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:49,640
And so their journey just was very significant in my formation and in my family's formation.

102
00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:55,280
There were times even when after we had sort of left the Catholic church and then when

103
00:06:55,280 --> 00:06:59,200
we moved to a small town, that was really the main church in town.

104
00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:06,560
And so we went back and I ended up going through confirmation and several of the younger siblings

105
00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:08,000
ended up getting baptized.

106
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:15,320
But my dad took very seriously the role of his being sort of a priest of our family and

107
00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:20,240
he would come home on Sundays and we would all be bickering about who's going to get

108
00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,280
what kind of donuts because we had stopped at the donut place.

109
00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:29,720
But dad and mom would sit us down and go back over the scriptures that had been read in

110
00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:34,600
the mass and help us understand what they were all about.

111
00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:42,040
So it was a very, very vibrant experience of faith, high expectation that if we prayed,

112
00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:43,040
God would do things.

113
00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,800
And if the Bible said it, that's how we would live our lives.

114
00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:51,600
Yeah, I love that because my parents came to Christ around the same time in the early

115
00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:57,440
70s and also really had that integrative faith and let our family together and growing in

116
00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:02,600
the Lord together, reading the Bible together, talking about it, praying together, sharing

117
00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:08,000
what we were praying about and praising God for the answers when they came.

118
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,880
And it marked me because I knew God was alive.

119
00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:11,880
God is alive.

120
00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:18,880
I do have friends who grew up in a very, like a very devoted or committed, I'll say, family

121
00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:23,200
to a Christian expression of some kind.

122
00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,080
But it was completely, utterly divorced from actual life.

123
00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:32,120
It was, you know, we go, we do the thing, it matters that we go.

124
00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:36,520
And there was a high priority, but it just didn't relate to the rest of life.

125
00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:37,680
Didn't inform their life.

126
00:08:37,680 --> 00:08:38,680
Correct.

127
00:08:38,680 --> 00:08:39,680
Yeah.

128
00:08:39,680 --> 00:08:40,680
Yeah.

129
00:08:40,680 --> 00:08:44,760
Well, as you moved into adulthood, your faith really did inform your life and your decisions.

130
00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:45,960
So where did that lead you?

131
00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:53,160
I went to a very secular university and, and sort of, I think, wandered a little bit, not

132
00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,520
knowing how to integrate my faith.

133
00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:59,760
I tried a couple of different campus ministries and where I went to school, they thought they

134
00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:00,760
were cults.

135
00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:10,200
So I was in the library at the man library at the Cornell College of Agriculture and

136
00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:11,280
Life Sciences.

137
00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:16,560
And I was studying for microbiology and I love the sciences.

138
00:09:16,560 --> 00:09:18,400
I love all that stuff.

139
00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:20,840
But I, I was sort of meandering.

140
00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:26,240
I hadn't really anchored in any faith experience and I, I almost knew better.

141
00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:32,200
Like I knew too much of the Bible, but I just, I couldn't find anything that felt relevant.

142
00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,960
And I probably wasn't trying all that hard, but I just hadn't.

143
00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:40,320
And I was reading this microbiology and I remember this textbook and I remember sitting

144
00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:44,920
at a big table in this public, you know, in the library and just putting my head down

145
00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,520
in the middle of the crease of this book.

146
00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:53,120
And of course, I don't remember what I was studying besides the broad topic, but I had,

147
00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,960
I remember feeling like, what difference does it make?

148
00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:58,760
What difference does it make?

149
00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,840
If I'm learning this, what difference does it make if I'm even alive?

150
00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,000
I mean, it wasn't anything like suicidal.

151
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:06,440
I wasn't depressed or anything.

152
00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,760
It just was like, why does any of this matter?

153
00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:12,360
Why does it matter?

154
00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,680
And so I just felt like at my head was in it and I was like, why, why does any of this

155
00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:18,080
matter?

156
00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:25,360
I just sort of prayed like God, if you want to find me in this space, if this stuff does

157
00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:29,280
matter, my life matters, I need help.

158
00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:34,560
And then as one does, I just sort of picked up my head and started reading again.

159
00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:41,280
In minutes, a tap comes on my shoulder and a friend who I had known through the sort of

160
00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:43,920
fraternity scene and he knew I had a faith.

161
00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:49,160
I knew he had a faith, but it wasn't like the driving force of our life at that point.

162
00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,360
But in both of our families of origin, it had been.

163
00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:57,040
And he said, I just want you to know, I've started going to this Bible study at the Sigma

164
00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:01,520
Chi house and these people are kind of like normal.

165
00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,280
And I think you would enjoy it.

166
00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:08,840
And so if you ever want to go, let me know, I'd be happy to bring you.

167
00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:13,120
And that Sigma Chi house was a rival to his fraternity.

168
00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,640
And so I thought, must be God.

169
00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,360
Yeah, if you going there.

170
00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:27,160
And I went and sure enough, the man who was co-leading it in his fraternity room, the Bible

171
00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,640
study is now my husband.

172
00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:37,400
And we began dating and it was a season of the lights all starting to come back on for

173
00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:38,400
me.

174
00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:43,720
Like, I knew so much truth from my childhood, but I hadn't been with peers.

175
00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:49,000
And it's a whole different thing when you're with your parents, friends and your own siblings

176
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:53,040
versus you're sitting around with a bunch of other college students who are reading a

177
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:58,800
verse on prayer and talking about midterms and talking about fraternity and sorority

178
00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,440
rush and talking about their wrestling team or whatever.

179
00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,200
And it was a very compelling environment.

180
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:11,000
And all of the like sort of backstory of my life just came rushing to the fore.

181
00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,600
And this is such an encouragement to people who are raising their kids and going like,

182
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,920
I don't know if they're ever going to follow Jesus.

183
00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:23,960
And then the light bulb comes on at some point that's outside of their control.

184
00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:28,520
And all of that building into just came forward.

185
00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:30,840
So anyway, that's what we did.

186
00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,480
My husband or that boyfriend at that time.

187
00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,880
And I really, we got involved with Campus Crusade, which is what it was at the time.

188
00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,400
And it's like, what else do you want to do but give your life to the Great Commission,

189
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,200
to the purposes of God in our world.

190
00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:48,040
And I didn't think that only meant vocational ministry.

191
00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,440
It could mean any number of assignments that God brings.

192
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:56,400
But our orientation is what is God inviting me into and how am I following him.

193
00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:01,200
And so, the conclusion of undergrad, my husband really wanted to go into seminary.

194
00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:07,880
So he went to Dallas Theological Seminary and I got, we got married a year later.

195
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:12,000
Again, my sort of propensity to pull a lot of things together.

196
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:18,920
I graduated one week and walked down the aisle the next week in June of 1987.

197
00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,200
So a long time ago now.

198
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,440
And then when it was at Dallas, so I just was in the marketplace.

199
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:31,760
I just found work in the area and you know, so that was it.

200
00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,800
They say that I got my Ph.T. for putting hubby through.

201
00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,000
So he graduated from seminary and then became a pastor.

202
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:40,720
He became a pastor's wife.

203
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:45,280
What happened was he took a couple years to do internships.

204
00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,760
So he did one internship up in Connecticut for a year.

205
00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,920
So I got a different job up in Connecticut and then we moved down to Dallas for him to

206
00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:52,920
complete.

207
00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:59,520
And then we learned about a church doing evangelism and discipleship, which of course that was

208
00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:01,480
our now our big heart drive.

209
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,640
And there was a church that was doing that.

210
00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:07,880
We also, he had professors at seminary, Aubrey Malfers and others who were talking about

211
00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:14,720
church planting as being the primary way in a vocational traditional church kind of setting

212
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:20,280
where some of the aspirational goals of a paratroop organization were actually being realized

213
00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:26,400
where evangelism was a priority and discipleship was a priority, which praise be to God, many

214
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:31,160
churches that is a higher and more explicit priority now.

215
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:36,280
But at that time, it was not common to hear churches talking about what their strategy

216
00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,560
for evangelism or discipleship was.

217
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:47,080
And so we were, we both ended up applying for an internship, a church planting internship.

218
00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:51,720
So that had great alignment to what we were concerned with that was being offered at Willow

219
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,560
Creek Community Church up in the suburbs of Chicago.

220
00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,440
So we did a church planting internship for a year.

221
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,480
And it was after that that he became a pastor.

222
00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:08,400
We both had been on the staff of that church, but we, yeah, that's what we did.

223
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:09,600
So just tell one or two things.

224
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:15,320
I knew you had been working in business and then you go to a church planting internship.

225
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,440
What did God do or teach you during that year?

226
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,400
It had to be a total shift of mind.

227
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,480
There were a lot of things, a couple of things.

228
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:28,160
Willow Creek was, was even at that point large enough compared to many other churches that

229
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:33,920
the, the more business environments that I had been involved, they brought that level

230
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,360
of professionalism to ministry.

231
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:41,480
And so in some ways it was like, Oh, these people are serious about this stuff.

232
00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:42,720
They're serious about their faith.

233
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,080
They're serious about all this stuff.

234
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:51,160
And so it was, it was almost reassuring to find a cultural familiarity with the level

235
00:15:51,160 --> 00:16:00,720
of intensity to the gospel, but professionalism brought to the systems of, of a ministry.

236
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:05,520
But I think another really big transformational thing for me while we were interns there,

237
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,200
my husband has more natural gifts in evangelism.

238
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:13,880
I would say my gifts lie more in discipleships, spiritual formation, teaching, edification,

239
00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:14,880
that kind of stuff.

240
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:21,080
Compared to being an intern at Willow, I kind of held this little dark secret view in my

241
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,920
head, which was like, if somebody doesn't want to follow Jesus, like that's, that's

242
00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:26,920
up to them.

243
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,520
Like it's not our job to like, I don't know.

244
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,320
I, you would think after being with Campus Crusade, I would have been very, very highly

245
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,120
always evangelistically motivated, but that's my confession.

246
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,040
I'm not proud of this.

247
00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:44,840
What shifted for me that year, this was in 19, what year were we there?

248
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:45,840
1990.

249
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:46,840
Okay.

250
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:48,600
So Willow was only 15 years old at the time.

251
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,960
It was not what it became over time.

252
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:58,960
And with their mission to help lost people become fully devoted followers of Christ, they

253
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,160
were very focused on how are we reaching out to people.

254
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:09,960
And on any given Sunday, you would be sitting in their weekend services, which was basically

255
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:14,480
their church as it were services happened midweek, but there every weekend they were

256
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:21,560
putting on evangelism sessions that were the time an invited guest might come to church,

257
00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:22,560
thinking it was church.

258
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:27,600
So they, it was really focused evangelistically on the weekends.

259
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:33,760
On any given Sunday, you'd sit in the service and, you know, person to the right, person

260
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:38,760
to the left, statistically, one of those two people did not follow Jesus at all.

261
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:48,280
And I had never been in an environment like that, that was so fruitful with people coming

262
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:53,360
to faith and then for the very first time, then these, these was, I mean, the statistics

263
00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:58,960
they used to throw around years and years ago was like it was 85% conversion growth.

264
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:00,680
And like that's exciting.

265
00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:06,240
They weren't just pulling from other believers at churches that, you know, as often can happen

266
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,680
when a new more contemporary church comes along.

267
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,600
Like this was, this was conversion growth.

268
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,040
And I was humbled by that.

269
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:18,320
I learned that the professionalism that could be brought to ministry was good.

270
00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:25,240
I felt God's heart for why we leave the 99 to go after the one.

271
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:35,400
I was mentored by many people, other women who were in leadership, ministry leadership,

272
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:42,320
and men as well who were very articulate about the interior life and how the interior life

273
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:48,840
really matters for all the things that we care about and matters to God.

274
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:54,640
And back at that time, I think we were so focused on making sure people believe the

275
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:59,640
right things that we weren't necessarily paying attention to the inner journey, to the inner

276
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:00,720
story.

277
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:08,480
I didn't myself do as much journeying as I eventually did while there, but I will say

278
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:14,360
that it was the beginning of, of me having a growing awareness.

279
00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:20,160
For example, one of my mentors required a required reading that I had that year was,

280
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:24,480
I think it was Henry Cloud's first book that he and John Townsend wrote.

281
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:29,280
And it was, I remember thinking this is like stuff I've never heard before, never read

282
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,360
before, but it was terribly edited.

283
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:39,560
And so it just, it was a thick, like you had to work really hard to understand what they

284
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:40,560
were saying.

285
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,600
And at the same time, it was like, this is life changing.

286
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:51,640
It did eventually get republished and edited more holistically under a title that people

287
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,600
may be familiar with, which was called changes that heal.

288
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,560
Changes that heal became one of their first and even boundaries, their sort of landmark

289
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:04,880
book came out of the framework that was introduced in this changes that heal.

290
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:11,920
But my goodness, I had never, never encountered somebody who was really plumbing the depths

291
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:17,360
both biblically and psychologically and helping us connect those dots.

292
00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:20,520
So it was a powerful year for me, very transformational.

293
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:25,800
Well, that's a new concept for I think many, many people because we spend so much time

294
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:36,160
on learning the scripture that it is difficult to integrate it all into our life as a human.

295
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,440
But we'll talk more about that later.

296
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:44,400
So after you were an intern, you and your husband felt called to Boston where you planted

297
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,800
a church and cheer about your time in Boston.

298
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,520
And really how that led to a crisis that really did change your life and even transformed

299
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:53,960
your relationship with God.

300
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:58,400
This is one of those stories that you're happy to share if it ever helped somebody else,

301
00:20:58,400 --> 00:20:59,400
right?

302
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:05,080
We went to Boston, which is a hard ministry context and church planting is not an easy

303
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:06,080
ride.

304
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:11,160
So we were doing a hard thing in a very difficult place and we did it in the hardest possible

305
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:12,160
way.

306
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:13,400
We had no sending organization.

307
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:14,920
We had no sending funding.

308
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:19,240
We had no oversight to speak of other than friends.

309
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:25,600
And so we started our own 501c3, handled all the taxes, banking, everything.

310
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:29,240
And by God's grace, he very clearly led us.

311
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,440
And there was a little core group of people that started to come around it.

312
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,360
I had no, well, it was back to that boundaries idea.

313
00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:38,680
I had no real boundaries.

314
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:43,040
And if something needed to be done, then I was stepping up as hard as I could to try

315
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:44,800
to make sure that happened.

316
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,680
And again, part of my family of origin, right?

317
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,880
It's like you're a hyper responsible person and you're taking care of people and that's

318
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,640
what we do.

319
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:58,200
And so when you add God layers onto it, it makes it even more difficult to ever say,

320
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,080
no.

321
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:05,080
And that's too much or I'm already doing this and I need space and I couldn't say any of

322
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,080
that stuff.

323
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:13,440
And so, you know, about five years midway, what became a 10 year beautiful season in

324
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:23,520
Boston, but five years in, I woke up one day with some pretty severe neurological symptoms,

325
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:31,440
stuff in my optic nerve and brain and all this stuff and had me extremely ill, couldn't

326
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:37,560
hold down food, couldn't see straight, couldn't walk, couldn't drive, couldn't read, couldn't

327
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:42,720
write, couldn't watch television, couldn't do anything.

328
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:49,360
And it pushed me into a very unwelcome season of forced rest.

329
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:54,000
I was at that time kind of running the whole back end of the ministry.

330
00:22:54,000 --> 00:23:01,600
So all the finances, I was handling all that, all the communications, a lot of the administration

331
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:06,320
of a church and also trying to encourage my husband.

332
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:12,800
He at that point, like we both responded to the stress of Boston in different ways.

333
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:18,560
He started to kind of spiral into a bit of a depression that probably by the time this

334
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:23,480
happened to me, he was probably in a full on chemical depression where your brain is

335
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:29,880
like actually reinforcing what might have started as a circumstantial kind of situation,

336
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:37,040
but now is turning biological, which we had no language for.

337
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,560
I can say these words right now, but I didn't have any words for that.

338
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,360
We had no idea what was going on and my reaction was to overwork.

339
00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:49,680
Like, I got to keep him together, I got to take care of this two-year-old, I'm pregnant,

340
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,160
oh, and I was like leaving three different small groups.

341
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:58,160
So it's like all of these things were happening all at once and I just kept responding to

342
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:05,280
it with more and more productivity because I didn't have any other way.

343
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:12,400
I had to get hospitalized several times because I kept dehydrating so badly I went into premature

344
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,880
labor and the baby was too small, we couldn't do that.

345
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:21,760
Oh man, it was a very hard season.

346
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:27,440
Yeah, and those physical symptoms, they were just the outward sign of what you referred

347
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,960
to as the implosion of your soul.

348
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,920
And I mean, that's kind of like what?

349
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:35,920
What does that mean?

350
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,080
Explain, explain what you mean by that.

351
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:43,240
And the very real and spiritual and emotional turmoil you were undergoing.

352
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,960
Yeah, there was a lot.

353
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:51,280
On the mental side, I couldn't handle knowing that all these balls that I was working so

354
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,560
hard to keep in the air, they were dropping right and left.

355
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,320
So that was like heavy on my heart.

356
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,880
And finally, I couldn't meet what Jeff needed.

357
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:05,560
So what's going to happen if he's not well and I'm not well and what if I never get better?

358
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,720
And so emotionally I was spiraling.

359
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:17,000
I may have told you that one of the neurologists, because I was spiraling so badly, one of the

360
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:25,800
times I was hospitalized, the neurologist, he pulled my husband aside and said, look,

361
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,760
this baby is coming, whether or not she's better and you got to start getting ready

362
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,640
for that.

363
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:38,280
And which of course, he was so incapacitated, like that he wasn't really able to respond

364
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:39,280
to that.

365
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,400
But anyway, I hear that this is what the guy is saying and I am wailing in despair.

366
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:48,360
Like I can't, don't tell me I can't take care of my newborn, don't tell me, like I just was

367
00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:51,720
irrational and miserable.

368
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:59,080
And this neurologist stood by my bed and I mean, and I'm like, you know, puking my guts

369
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,600
out in one of those little kidney bowls.

370
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,240
I mean, it was such a mess.

371
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:11,480
And he says to me in the loveliest bedside manners, Ms. Caliguire, basically you have

372
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,560
two choices right now.

373
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:20,360
You can either accept this and make the best of it or you can make yourself and everyone

374
00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:22,760
around you miserable.

375
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,480
And he walked out of the room.

376
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:30,360
So anyway, I'm just telling you, there was physical, mental, emotional, and he told

377
00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:34,440
my husband, you better get her with some sort of a counselor or something to try to give

378
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,720
her emotional support because if she keeps spiraling, it's going to compromise her ability

379
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:45,300
to get better because your physical health is so tied, which I didn't know at the time,

380
00:26:45,300 --> 00:26:50,560
so tied to emotional, spiritual, mental well-being.

381
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,040
I didn't know that.

382
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,480
I thought those were totally different categories.

383
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,520
So I traipse myself down to Dr. Lombardi's office.

384
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:58,640
God bless Dr. Lombardi.

385
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:04,320
I think there were only three Christian psychologists in all of New England and one of them was

386
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,920
down the street from where we lived.

387
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:13,400
And so even though I couldn't drive or walk, Dr. Lombardi had space in his calendar for

388
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:14,960
me.

389
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,800
And the first time we met, I told him a little bit about the last five years and what we've

390
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:23,280
been going through and some of my family of origin and things like that.

391
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:28,400
And he looked at me and he said, you know, Mindy, I can't speak to what's going on biologically,

392
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:29,400
you know, all this stuff.

393
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,480
It was a cerebellum and optic nerve and all this.

394
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:37,840
But from a psychological standpoint, you have forced out of your body what could never

395
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,480
come out of your mouth, just the word no, which leaves us to the spiritual side.

396
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:47,720
So you know, you asked about these very specific things and I will say the spiritual side was

397
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:57,000
probably the most confusing of all, because I kind of started out this journey of being

398
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:02,160
in forced rest a little like, hey, God, you know, what gives?

399
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:03,160
I'm on your team.

400
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:04,160
This is not strategic.

401
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:08,120
There's all this stuff that needs to happen.

402
00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:09,920
And silence.

403
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:15,920
Just try telling God that something he's doing is not strategic.

404
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:16,920
Oh, really?

405
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:17,920
Oh, the arrogance.

406
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:18,920
So hard to admit.

407
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,000
And then God's tenderness is so kind.

408
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:27,640
So in the middle of the night, often I couldn't sleep.

409
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,400
And if there are listeners who have been in that space, when you are really ill, sometimes

410
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,040
you just can't sleep at night because you're not getting normal amounts of movement during

411
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:37,040
the day.

412
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,680
There's probably a ton of reasons, but you can't sleep.

413
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:46,160
And during one of those episodes when I was up at night, and kind of just arguing with

414
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:55,360
God about the whole thing, I really sensed him saying to me, you know, you remember that

415
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,040
verse you were having all three of your small groups memorize?

416
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:05,040
And you read it at the beginning of our time, John 15.5.

417
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,600
If you remain in me, you'll bear much fruit.

418
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,880
We love that part.

419
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,600
But the second half is also scripture.

420
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:20,040
And Jesus said to his followers then and now, apart from me, you can do nothing.

421
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:29,520
I just sensed God saying with maybe a bit of a snarky voice as only a divine snark could.

422
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,200
You know, Mindy, what part of nothing didn't you understand?

423
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:38,480
Maybe that was part of the reason why I really didn't ever blame God for what was happening.

424
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,000
It wasn't God's fault.

425
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:49,480
I knew if something had gone awry in the spiritual realm, it was most likely on my end, not his.

426
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:54,720
So I kind of resisted that at first because like, what part of nothing don't you understand?

427
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,200
I mean, we're Bible believing people.

428
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,880
We know that Psalm 139 says there's nowhere I can go that's away from his present.

429
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,880
You know, Roman says that there's nothing that can ever separate us from the love of God,

430
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,920
not like death, angels, demons, nothing.

431
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:11,480
So what did Jesus mean?

432
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,360
What did he mean when he was saying that?

433
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:21,440
And so it really put me in more disequilibrium spiritually than almost any of them.

434
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:27,200
But I think all of us have to get to that point of disequilibrium and honest, honest

435
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,080
wrestling, not just like slapping on, oh, I can do all things through Christ this time

436
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,000
and then we just keep moving.

437
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:40,320
Like if you don't let the disequilibrium in, God can't kind of like shake it up and show

438
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,200
you a new way.

439
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:49,080
But by God's grace, I was shaken up enough that I've, he really did invite me into a

440
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:50,080
new way.

441
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:51,080
It did save my life.

442
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:56,440
Tell us about that journey of recovery and some of the principles God showed you and

443
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,200
how they practically played out.

444
00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:59,680
I'm a very practical person.

445
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,080
You know, how did they practically play out in your daily life?

446
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:04,080
And it's really fun.

447
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,680
I'll say that you mentioned some of the books.

448
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:12,120
The newest book that just came out a few months ago is the one that goes into this story in

449
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:17,160
greater detail than I've ever really done before in writing.

450
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:18,160
I say it.

451
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:23,800
I share my story all the time and gladly in contexts like this.

452
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,320
And so there's lots of practical steps in there as well for folks if they're interested.

453
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:34,400
But yeah, to give you the highlights, it's sort of like in the big three categories,

454
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:39,240
it's like God led me, first of all, to realize I had never been taking care of my soul.

455
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:47,840
My soul was saved, but I had no way of life that was allowing me to arrange for this real

456
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:54,080
time in the moment connection with God, this abiding, this remaining, whatever word you

457
00:31:54,080 --> 00:32:02,200
want to put on it, where we are invited by Jesus to receive our life from Him moment by

458
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:07,640
moment, day by day, not just a one time decision that I pray to prayer or whatever.

459
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:12,880
Those are important, but how are we finding a way of life to receive our life from God

460
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:14,080
moment by moment?

461
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:19,800
So that was sort of the punchline of where this journey took me, but it didn't start there.

462
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,280
I was, I was all over the map, Jody.

463
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:32,280
I needed to learn ways, new ways of being in my own skin, knowing my limits, knowing,

464
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:37,600
like accepting who God had made me to be, right?

465
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:43,120
Being in my own skin, different ways of being with others, like a lot of my leadership training

466
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:50,280
and stuff, everything was about like who was leading, who was following, friendship was

467
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,800
like in the fluffy zone, like who's got time for that.

468
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,200
And it's now I was starting to learn that, oh my goodness, there are some very powerful

469
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:07,400
ways of relating that God has designed us for that aren't about where someone is positioned

470
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,480
next to someone else, but are about a way of being together.

471
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:17,520
And I think that's one of the most transformational things that God has made available to us is

472
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:24,800
these highly connected, open relationships.

473
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,840
So I had to learn how to be in my own skin differently.

474
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:32,880
I had to learn how to be with others more authentically, more vulnerably.

475
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,480
And then I did have to learn a different way of being with God.

476
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:42,920
I think I knew how to know things about God, but I didn't really know how to just be with

477
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:44,960
like the way you would with a friend.

478
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:49,800
Again, so much of my malformation was in performing, right?

479
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:55,920
It's like I knew how to produce, I knew how to get stuff done, I knew I was really good

480
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:56,920
at that stuff.

481
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:03,800
I wasn't good at just being, being in my own skin, being with other people and being with

482
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,200
God.

483
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:10,360
And you've heard that before that, you know, we end up being human doings rather than human

484
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,160
beings.

485
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:17,000
And being is a different way.

486
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:18,160
That was a lot of my journey.

487
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:27,320
It was mentors, it was authors, it was friends, it was so many different, again, ways of being

488
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:32,920
that opened up everything that has happened to me since.

489
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:38,840
Because when you're living out of the overflow of a healthy soul, not a perfect soul, we're

490
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,280
talking about health, which is a different dimension.

491
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:49,000
And when souls are healthy, they're vibrant.

492
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,880
They feel good to be in and they feel good to be around.

493
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:59,560
So you'd always had a strong faith and you knew that, you know, God wasn't at fault here,

494
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,920
but as you were going through this, how did that, how did your faith and your belief system

495
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:04,920
change?

496
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,160
How was it impacted by all of this?

497
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,240
Because, you know, you still knew Jesus was the way to salvation.

498
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:13,920
I think I was broadening what that meant, honestly.

499
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:19,240
Like the way to salvation, you know, the Romans wrote, you know, we know all those things.

500
00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:23,680
I think, I mean, the root word in the Greek for salvation is the same as the word for

501
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,160
healing.

502
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:33,240
And the idea that we are being healed over time, that we are being shaped and formed into

503
00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:35,360
the image of Christ.

504
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:41,200
Like I think I thought that that formation process was like a bonus optional decision,

505
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:42,200
right?

506
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,440
Like you can make a decision to have Jesus be Savior, but it's a different decision to

507
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:46,440
have him be Lord.

508
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,560
Well, I think that's a false dichotomy.

509
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:55,560
And I think it's, I think we're reaping some of what we've sown with perhaps inadvertent

510
00:35:55,560 --> 00:36:01,560
messages like that, where we want to compel people toward discipleship, but we end up

511
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:06,320
minimizing salvation and making discipleship optional.

512
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:16,560
And so reintegrating what a life of salvation, a life with God, a life lived in grace, what

513
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:22,640
that looks like in real time, instead of some intellectual decisions I've made about the

514
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,000
Bible or about who God is.

515
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:31,520
It was a complete reorientation of, yes, it was that same foundational faith.

516
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,360
But now it was like, I'm like struggling with words or a metaphor.

517
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,680
It's like it went from like this two dimensional thing that you thought you were looking at

518
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,440
a line.

519
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:47,800
And all of a sudden it turns and you realize, oh no, this is an entire canvas.

520
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:55,040
It opened up a whole different dimension for me of like what is happening right now?

521
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,520
How am I connecting to God right now?

522
00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:58,880
Not what do I believe?

523
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:00,200
What is true in the Bible?

524
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:06,520
Those are important things, but where's the Lord and His presence and His goodness and

525
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,080
His grace to me right now?

526
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:13,040
And how am I creating paths to practically connect with that?

527
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,920
One of the things we talk about in Soul Care all the time, because I know you want some

528
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:21,120
practical ideas, is we talk about the importance of a page, a person, and a plan.

529
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,600
And these are just about as basic as you can get.

530
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,800
And sometimes if people say to me, like, all right, you've convinced me, I probably should

531
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:34,600
or God has convinced me, I should probably take care of my soul.

532
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,920
What's the one thing I should do?

533
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:42,040
And I don't think the whole of our life with God necessarily gets reduced to one thing,

534
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:46,480
but it helps to have an easy way to think about where to start.

535
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:53,280
And the page is a really important invitation into like journaling and reflection and taking

536
00:37:53,280 --> 00:38:01,440
time to honor your own journey enough to pay attention to what is going on inside you.

537
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:07,800
And the people that keep journals are explorers, and we are moving into uncharted territory

538
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:08,800
as well.

539
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,240
And ours is the future.

540
00:38:11,240 --> 00:38:12,560
Who are we becoming?

541
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:13,760
What is God doing?

542
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,480
And how am I responding?

543
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:22,320
So journal is a big place to start being very real about what's true.

544
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,320
And so that's a key part.

545
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,640
A page in the person is those connections.

546
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:33,040
Could be a person you pay, it could be a therapist, a coach, a spiritual director, those are all

547
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,160
really important ways.

548
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:40,920
Could also be a friend, somebody like my mom happened to meet who was a neighborhood friend

549
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:42,320
that was leading a Bible study.

550
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:48,480
Who is that person that's helping you on your journey of becoming?

551
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,520
And then there's usually a plan.

552
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:56,520
I think we suffer if we think that we're just going to float downstream into greater intimacy

553
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,360
with God.

554
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,600
It's like you got to have a plan.

555
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:07,880
What is not rigid and mechanical, but intentionality.

556
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:13,960
And even within that plan, I have found that it's possible like forever.

557
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,080
I was having a quiet time every day, right?

558
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:17,440
Like you had to check it off your list.

559
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,880
You had a quiet time, you said your prayers, you did the laundry.

560
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:25,520
Again, this way of being in my own skin, being with others and being with God, I began to

561
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:32,200
realize that many times I might have burned through a 45 minute quiet time, but I had

562
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,160
never actually connected.

563
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,240
I'd never actually been open to God.

564
00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:39,880
It was all, what am I learning?

565
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:40,880
Very mental.

566
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:42,040
What am I learning?

567
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:43,640
What should I do?

568
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:48,240
But more me thinking about it all, not me relating to God.

569
00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:49,240
Yeah.

570
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:50,240
There are times.

571
00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:55,120
I'm not really sure about our devotions, very task oriented.

572
00:39:55,120 --> 00:40:00,640
I am a little bit more on the task oriented side and I've really had to learn how to focus

573
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,120
on the relationship side.

574
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:08,120
And yeah, you read, you pray, you, and then you do the next thing on your list.

575
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,560
And you can even write down a few thoughts in a journal.

576
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,240
I mean, you can, you know?

577
00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:16,680
And still it's not the same thing as what you're talking about, which is getting real

578
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,360
with your struggles and putting them before God.

579
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:20,360
Yeah.

580
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,400
And letting your soul rest in God's care.

581
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,200
I didn't have categories for that.

582
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,480
And it, it was all sort of very mental, very analytical.

583
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:35,280
You know, as you learn to abide and remain in Christ, what changed in your life?

584
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:41,040
I felt like I was coming more and more to be who God had made me to be.

585
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:49,240
Like I felt, and I felt like I was being invited into this wild adventure that I didn't

586
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:51,480
plan on or expect.

587
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:58,760
So like everything that has happened through soul care over these many now decades, honestly

588
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:04,120
was never part of like a five year plan or like me figuring out where did I want to go

589
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,120
work and submitting resumes.

590
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,680
Like it just wasn't, it wasn't pushed.

591
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,520
Like I wasn't ever pushing.

592
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:18,600
You get to live this life of freedom and invitation and yet what spills out over the edges of

593
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:23,080
your life is things that somehow help other people.

594
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:33,240
And it's the funnest thing in the world to, to be invited by God into what he's doing

595
00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:34,360
in our day.

596
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:40,400
And so like all these ideas about soul care and resources that we could create and journals

597
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,760
and like I just, they just would unfold.

598
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,840
They would just happen and doors that I didn't even know existed.

599
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:55,280
It's just like me taking care of my three kids, spending time with God, working out at

600
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,120
the health club, like just living my life.

601
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:05,200
And then doors would open for me to do other things that had God's fingerprints all over

602
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:06,200
them.

603
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:07,200
It wasn't striving.

604
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,040
It wasn't, I didn't have a plan.

605
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:14,960
It just was a unfolding and unfolding that was such a blessing.

606
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:20,120
I think that would be one of the markers of the difference is that, that, that sense

607
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:27,600
of living out of overflow versus the hustle and grind that even in many Christian contexts,

608
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:33,080
we think is how we're supposed to approach ministry or our spirit to life.

609
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:39,440
And it's like, that doesn't sound a lot like, I don't know, through the spirit.

610
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:47,360
The unforced rhythms of grace to use Eugene Peterson's paraphrase of Matthew 11.

611
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:54,400
And the contrast, I think to those who encounter your life is massive, but the contrast even

612
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,520
internally, you're just so much more free.

613
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,680
And you know, that, that wasn't the end of your life's challenges.

614
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:07,040
Clearly, the one, the one soul implosion, but now you really started approaching them

615
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:08,200
differently.

616
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:09,960
So just share a couple of examples.

617
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:15,080
And I got to tell you, it changes everything because once you know how to receive your

618
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:24,240
life from God, wherever God takes you, whatever circumstances befall, you are able to be

619
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:25,240
well.

620
00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:27,000
You can be fundamentally well no matter what.

621
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:28,000
And you're right.

622
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:34,280
Again, that book we've talked about that we had these terrible wildfires in Boulder three

623
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:39,280
years ago, the ones that just happened a couple of weeks ago in LA have been very poignant

624
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,240
reminders of what that was like.

625
00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:46,520
And that was what impacted our community and some land we have out here in Boulder.

626
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,280
Just devastating and, and very disruptive.

627
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:58,560
But if it hadn't been for these, these ways I know how to anchor my soul in God, which

628
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:03,320
takes time or none of your time, it's how you are with God.

629
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:09,360
And it's, it's helped me and I, you know, I've had challenges with my work assignments

630
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:17,560
and I mean, I've served in some pretty high intensity leadership contexts and that always

631
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,240
comes with challenge and that's not bad.

632
00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:21,240
That's not wrong.

633
00:44:21,240 --> 00:44:28,360
There's things that God wants us to, to contend for and to show up in our world, but out of

634
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:35,160
overflow, not out of grindy or proving or just all kinds of things that can malfunction

635
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,280
if we're not living in that overflow.

636
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:43,040
I was just reading the end of the book of Acts this morning and it's like, you cannot

637
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:51,200
tell me that Paul and Peter and all these other guys thought they were getting a life

638
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,280
of bliss in following Jesus.

639
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:58,240
Like that isn't what anybody of us signs up for.

640
00:44:58,240 --> 00:45:07,880
Our life is a living sacrifice and it's possible to live that life with circumstances that

641
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:15,320
are pleasant as Paul talks about or circumstances that are devastating, but we're held, we're

642
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:21,520
held and we're receiving our life from God moment by moment in it through many dangers,

643
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:29,160
toils and snares, I have already come and if it's grace, not a one time forgiveness

644
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:34,920
grace, if it's grace as Dallas will define it as the active presence of God doing for

645
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,720
us what we cannot do on our own behalf.

646
00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:43,920
If it's grace that's brought me safe this far, it will be grace that leads us home,

647
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:45,320
that brings me home.

648
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:46,840
So what does God have you doing now?

649
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:48,360
You've mentioned soul care.

650
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:49,360
Yeah.

651
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:50,360
Yeah.

652
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,920
So you're into that organization and it's really birthed.

653
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:54,920
Well, I did.

654
00:45:54,920 --> 00:46:00,840
Yeah, well God did, but yeah, it's an ancient term, soul care, the care of souls.

655
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:06,320
And really the URL was available when I was first creating those soul care journals back

656
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,480
in 1997 and 98.

657
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:11,480
So this is a long time ago.

658
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:17,200
So I was able to grab the URL and over these past decades it's had different expressions,

659
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:22,720
but when I finally left my last corporate job, which I loved, I loved the team, I loved

660
00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:27,960
the mission of the organization, but in the wake of the pandemic, I felt like this is

661
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:33,960
the time in my life where I want to see if I can't give as much lift to this topic globally

662
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:35,120
as possible.

663
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:40,680
And so what are the teams, what are the tech platforms, what are the digital environments,

664
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,640
what are the in person environments?

665
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:47,880
How can we pull together what now soul care is becoming?

666
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:52,760
So there's a whole team of us now that are creatives and spiritual directors and coaches

667
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:58,440
and all kinds of amazing people, other communicators like myself.

668
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,560
And it's like, all right, what are the resources?

669
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:06,880
What are the emails that could show up on a regular basis that invite people to take

670
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,360
a breath and do a soul care check in?

671
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:15,120
How could we embed monthly retreat into our year round engagement with people?

672
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,600
And what does that monthly retreat and digital spaces look like?

673
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:24,120
So anyway, it's been a fun challenge and had many amazing partners along the way with

674
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:29,360
the ECFA and National Christian Foundation get to serve great organizations like Compassion

675
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:34,360
and some of the amazing churches in our country and around the world.

676
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,280
And so I, it's a sweet season.

677
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,480
So we're trying to figure out how to get that ranch up and off the ground.

678
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:44,400
There's a couple of little small bungalow type sheds.

679
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,120
I mean, they're nicer than a shed that you keep a lawn mower in.

680
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:53,000
They're like got nice leather couches and stuff in them, but, but people can overnight

681
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:57,960
and have these beautiful views and, and rest in God.

682
00:47:57,960 --> 00:47:59,880
And so that we call it whisper ranch.

683
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:10,320
So yeah, my time right now is soul care whisper ranch and now a grandson or boys are my daughters

684
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,760
in law who are amazing.

685
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:14,080
It's a sweet season.

686
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,560
I just have so much gratitude to the Lord.

687
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:24,160
Like you could never, you could never from that first night I was hospitalized in March

688
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,080
of 1995.

689
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:33,240
You could never, no one could have imagined the journey.

690
00:48:33,240 --> 00:48:39,880
You know, the Lord says, no, I have seen no ear has heard what God is going to do.

691
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:45,440
And oh, for everyone listening for you yourself, Tony, like it's like, I would not want you

692
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:51,800
to miss one thing of what God has for you that's coming out of overflow.

693
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,040
He wants to reach his people.

694
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:58,720
You know, I've been in Christian ministry, my, you know, almost my whole career as well.

695
00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:05,680
And there's a tendency among people, particularly in vocational ministry, but not, not solely

696
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:11,480
in vocational ministry to struggle with the idea of self care.

697
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:16,800
When we're also trying to live out the scriptures of let's take up our cross daily, let's die

698
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:18,720
to self.

699
00:49:18,720 --> 00:49:21,920
And how do, how do you balance that?

700
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:23,600
What balance have you found?

701
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,920
What advice do you give that comes up a lot, especially when we're talking with like mission

702
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,200
organizations and things like that.

703
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:38,360
Um, first, let's go back to that, you know, taking up our cross daily.

704
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,680
That is not an optional.

705
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,720
That is what Jesus invites us into, right?

706
00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:46,360
Again, living is a living sacrifice.

707
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,520
These are these are important thing.

708
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:53,200
I've been crucified in crisis no longer I live and Christ that lives in me.

709
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,800
The life I now live in this body, I live by faith, you know, there's all these, and those,

710
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,640
some of those were quite formative to me in my recovery.

711
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:06,320
Cause it's like, if I ever get my life in the body back, like this is the path.

712
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,920
This living by faith is something I need to learn.

713
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:17,440
I mentor mine, one of the women who influenced me most used to give a really kind of wrenching,

714
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,520
gut wrenching talk to leaders.

715
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:25,480
And it was called, I died to myself and myself almost died.

716
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:33,400
And she in it raises the idea that there are ways that were to die to self.

717
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,240
This is how I talk about it.

718
00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:39,800
We die to our self will.

719
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,760
We die to our self orientation.

720
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:44,360
We die to our agendas.

721
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,520
We die to our control.

722
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,960
There are things we need to die to early and often.

723
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:54,280
And a lot of times Christian leaders haven't died to any of those things in the name of

724
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:55,920
what they think they're dying to.

725
00:50:55,920 --> 00:51:06,960
Those are the things that we die to getting sufficient rest, honoring a Sabbath, going

726
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:09,680
for years without a vacation.

727
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:16,400
Those are not, in my view, what Jesus was asking us to give up.

728
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:21,960
And do we give up our self orientation, selfishness, self, pretty much anything self-hyphenated?

729
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,120
I've shared this before on my podcast.

730
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:29,680
So some of my listeners may have heard this, but when I was in my early 30s, I was in a

731
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:33,360
ministry, a humanitarian ministry, and I was traveling all over the world.

732
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,960
And I was saying yes to every project that came.

733
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:36,960
I would raise my hand.

734
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:37,960
I'll do it.

735
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:38,960
I'll do it.

736
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:39,960
I'll do it.

737
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:40,960
And one day I remember waking up.

738
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:41,960
I didn't even know where I was.

739
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:43,120
I was not in the United States.

740
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:48,640
I woke up in this hotel room and I thought, I love everything I'm doing, but I hate my

741
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:50,680
life.

742
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:51,800
And it was a wake-up call to me.

743
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:57,920
I was like, I've said yes to everything without asking God if I was supposed to say yes to

744
00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:59,200
that.

745
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:00,240
And I was burned out.

746
00:52:00,240 --> 00:52:03,160
I had traveled on weekends to save ministry money.

747
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,720
I had done all of these things.

748
00:52:05,720 --> 00:52:07,680
I've missed family events.

749
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:09,080
I've missed church a lot.

750
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:11,680
I disconnected from friends.

751
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:13,280
And it took me about a year.

752
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:17,320
I went home and I went home to my boss and I'm like, I can't do it anymore.

753
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,560
Fortunately, he was a pastor.

754
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:24,720
He had a pastoral heart and said, okay, let's put some boundaries in your life and didn't

755
00:52:24,720 --> 00:52:25,720
shame me for it.

756
00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:32,920
It took me about a year to kind of feel healthy again in my spirit, in my soul.

757
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:36,480
They used to say in the 80s, I'd rather burn out than rest out.

758
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:41,320
Well, the level of burnout among those leaders that you're talking about who might be like,

759
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:42,960
oh, it's selfish to do this.

760
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,720
I couldn't disagree more, first of all.

761
00:52:45,720 --> 00:52:48,200
And they're all burning out.

762
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:52,640
And no one wants their jobs because no one wants their lives.

763
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:57,200
So 20 years from now, those missions organizations, if they don't find a different way of doing

764
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:00,360
this, they're just going to be gone.

765
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:09,640
These things are crumbling right now for having lived such unhealthy patterns of leadership

766
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:10,640
and life.

767
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:15,680
People are not flourishing and they are killing themselves in order to give other people a

768
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:19,760
message of life, which has all levels of irony that I can't even handle.

769
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:20,760
Yeah.

770
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:25,760
I mean, I'm glad I had that experience when I was young and I was fairly resilient.

771
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:27,800
I didn't have a family at that time.

772
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:32,520
And I mean, you know, a family, I had a family origin, of course, but not, I wasn't caring

773
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,160
for anyone else but just me.

774
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:40,000
But you know, it enabled me to really be on the lookout for others around me that I was

775
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,080
working with that were doing that.

776
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:46,080
So I could say, hey, you know, back off, take a vacation.

777
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:48,000
You don't need to work until nine o'clock at night.

778
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,920
I mean, what are you supposed to love one another?

779
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,720
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.

780
00:53:53,720 --> 00:53:55,480
Love your neighbor as what?

781
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:57,000
As yourself.

782
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:04,440
And so not self obsessed, not self whatever, but caring for yourself is just wise.

783
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:05,960
Are there times of sacrifice?

784
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:06,960
Absolutely.

785
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:10,040
Are there times of great discomfort and pain and endurance?

786
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:11,040
Yes.

787
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:12,040
Is there suffering?

788
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:13,040
Is there persecution?

789
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:14,040
Yes.

790
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:20,320
Are you living a life that is beyond what God has assigned to you in terms of self generated

791
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:21,320
suffering?

792
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:23,840
Well, that's on you.

793
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:28,720
Self care usually gets defined in our culture as, you know, a good nourishing meal, making

794
00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:35,240
sure you're working out, having a bubble bath, you know, these kinds of things, which I think

795
00:54:35,240 --> 00:54:38,160
in general are innocuous and lovely.

796
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:44,200
And I would think, I think God would be honored if more of us ate healthy food and worked out

797
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:45,200
a little bit more.

798
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:46,760
I think that's not a bad thing.

799
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:47,760
And it is.

800
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,600
I mean, there's all kinds of data around how that drives our mental health, drives everything

801
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:52,600
else.

802
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:54,920
So that self care is important.

803
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,560
The reason I distinguish it a little bit from soul care is a little bit like how you

804
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:02,760
can have a 45 minute quiet time and not really connect with God.

805
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:08,800
I think it's possible to have a bubble bath, a good workout and eat a very nutritious meal

806
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:14,600
and whatever other things you might put in that category of self care and not ever open

807
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:16,960
your soul to God.

808
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:22,680
And it's not to say that every workout you should figure out how to cram like my awareness

809
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:25,360
of God into that, like maybe that comes, that's great.

810
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:27,120
But like let a workout be a workout.

811
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:29,080
Do your self care.

812
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:35,000
But don't assume that because you're doing self care, your soul is finding a way of life

813
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,400
of being open to the living God.

814
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:46,800
That is a, it may be a separate category and it is one that we must as a first order priority

815
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,000
make sure we're pursuing.

816
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:56,640
Yeah, I remember one, one day I was in Columbia and I was walking through a barrio massive,

817
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:03,400
massive, went on as far as the eye could see and I was walking through saying, God, how

818
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:05,240
can I help all these people?

819
00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:06,240
How can I do it Lord?

820
00:56:06,240 --> 00:56:08,400
I mean, I'm just little old me.

821
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:13,560
I mean, I had an organization behind, I was representing an organization, but you know,

822
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:15,520
we didn't have the capacity to do this.

823
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:20,480
And I heard him say, if Jesus were here, what would Jesus do?

824
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:24,360
And it was just take care of the one in front of them.

825
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:32,080
I mean, Jesus did heal thousands of course, but it was, he also walked away from thousands.

826
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:33,080
He didn't heal everybody.

827
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:37,400
They were still people that were being healed by the disciples after Jesus went to heaven

828
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:41,160
that had been there on the earth when Jesus was there.

829
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:45,920
And it just freed me a little bit from the responsibility to be the savior of everyone.

830
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:46,920
Yes, yes.

831
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:49,880
Well, and that's even a word for single women.

832
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:54,480
I've got several friends who they look at their coworkers and they're like, oh, you

833
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:55,480
need time with your spouse.

834
00:56:55,480 --> 00:57:00,240
You should probably get home be with the kids and they take on more and more and more.

835
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:02,160
And it's just not healthy.

836
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:08,680
It's not that comes from a pure and sweet and servant heart, but it also comes from

837
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:16,200
a profound lack of awareness or regard for the value of their own soul.

838
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:22,320
Like, and they'll say like, well, how can my well being matter when all these other,

839
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,600
all this other suffering is, is going on?

840
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:31,640
And I'm not saying those are easy things to navigate, but we have got to recover a way

841
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:39,120
of navigating those things from a place of biblical and personal integrity in order to

842
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:46,760
have the ability to say no so that like what you experienced doesn't become the norm.

843
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:47,760
Yes, we close.

844
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:52,360
Mindy, would you share briefly about a woman in the Bible whose story has inspired, encouraged

845
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:53,680
or taught you something?

846
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:54,920
Of course I love Deborah.

847
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:57,640
I'm like, who was that woman?

848
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,640
The bumblebee who's the mother of Israel.

849
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:02,720
Like what kind of leader was she?

850
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:04,480
Okay, so I'm curious about her.

851
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:06,800
I want to meet her someday.

852
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:12,360
But the woman who really probably inspires me more often than that is actually Mary,

853
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:14,920
Jesus' mother.

854
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:21,680
And I think, you know, there is a woman who literally got entrusted one of the most assigned,

855
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:26,680
most important assignments that was ever given other than the one given to Jesus himself,

856
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:27,680
right?

857
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:30,400
That was not a carefree and easy task.

858
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:36,080
She's having to respond to angels at many different points, has to watch her son go

859
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:39,440
through unbelievable suffering.

860
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:42,320
She didn't sign up for the easy trip, right?

861
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:49,720
But she did sign up for life and God was able to entrust something to her because of her

862
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:53,840
ability to say, may it be done according to your holy will.

863
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:58,640
You know, whatever it is, whatever it is, God, my answer is yes.

864
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:00,000
I love that about her.

865
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:03,600
Andrew Murray in his book, Abiding Christ, I love this quote.

866
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:09,120
He says, our abiding in Jesus is even more than a relationship, a fellowship of love.

867
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:11,200
It's a fellowship of life.

868
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:12,600
I love that.

869
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:20,080
And you know, John 15.5 tells us that when we strive in our own strength, like we've

870
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:23,480
said a couple of times in this podcast, we can do nothing.

871
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:30,520
But as we've heard, Mindy, as you've shared when we remain in Christ, his life flows through

872
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:31,520
us.

873
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:34,440
Mindy, would you just take a moment and pray for our listeners?

874
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:35,440
I would love to.

875
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:36,440
I would love to.

876
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:41,120
Hey, everyone, wherever you are, if you can, join us with you.

877
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:42,120
Maybe your hands open.

878
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:48,440
Thank God each person who's listening right now, wherever they are, we ask for you to

879
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:50,000
bless them.

880
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:56,040
We ask for you to restore things that have felt lost along the way, maybe the health

881
00:59:56,040 --> 01:00:06,480
of their soul, maybe relationships, maybe friendships, maybe even just a sincere or

882
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:09,280
intimacy with you.

883
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:13,840
Whatever is lost along the way, God, we pray that you would restore it.

884
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:18,160
If it's even physical healing that you would bring healing.

885
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:24,840
And God, whatever you've equipped them uniquely to do, each one, God, as they open their hands

886
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:28,160
to you, would you fill those hands?

887
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:34,000
Not with more than they can handle, but with exactly what is theirs to do, not more.

888
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:40,080
And God, I pray that through their attending to the things you put in their hands, that

889
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:46,520
you would do those things that only you could do, that you would redeem and restore those

890
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:56,640
barrios, those neighborhoods, those brothels, those corporate entities, whatever it is,

891
01:00:56,640 --> 01:01:01,760
God, that where you've placed your people, God, I pray that the redeeming and restoring

892
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:07,800
of all things to yourself would be happening through us.

893
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:10,640
You said your burden would be easy.

894
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:12,520
Your yoke would be easy and the burden would be light.

895
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:14,080
So God, that's the last thing I ask.

896
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:21,840
Is it each one listening would encounter you in a new and fresh way that allows whatever

897
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:27,560
it is that you've asked them to shoulder to be easy and the burden to be light?

898
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:30,200
You're praying in Jesus' name.

899
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:31,200
Amen.

900
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:32,800
Well, thank you for tuning in.

901
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:36,680
Check out our show notes at hergodstory.org for scriptures and other information we talked

902
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:37,680
about.

903
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:42,360
There you can also download a free six-week devotional on Women of the Bible and consider

904
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:46,040
joining our company of women by supporting our Wittow and Orphan Fund.

905
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:51,240
We'd also love to pray with you on our 24-7 prayer and text line.

906
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:59,640
So give us a call or text anytime at 855-459-CARE or email us at prayer at somebodycares.org.

907
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:04,600
And now dear friends, I bless you from an adaptation of John 15, verses 9 through 12.

908
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:11,360
May you remain in God's love, keeping His commands so that His joy may be in you and

909
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:14,360
that your joy may be complete.

910
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:18,400
Her God Story is a ministry of Somebody Cares America and International.

911
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:44,440
To find out more about or support the ministry, go to somebodycares.org.