Talking With God About Hard Things, The Rev. Dr. Susan Bubbers’ Story

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Hey friends, you know I love a good story, especially if it's a God story that encourages

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and equips us in our own walk with Him.

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I'm your host Jodie Chiricosta, ministry leader at Somebody Cares America International, author

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and traveler on this journey of faith.

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And I want to introduce you to a woman who knows there is no ceiling with God.

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The Reverend Dr. Susan Bubbers and I first met when we were both pretty fresh out of

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college and working as computer programmers.

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God had called each of us to Spreage University for more training and we were both working

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full time while in school.

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We became fast friends as we talked about our similar backgrounds, jobs, and future

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plans.

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The Lord took us in slightly different directions once we graduated and it's been inspiring

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to see all God is doing in, for, and through Susan to this day.

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The Reverend Susan Bubbers is founder and president of the Atlas Theological Center

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based in Celebration, Florida, right near Disney.

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As well as the founding priest and rector of Celebration Anglican Fellowship.

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Susan has numerous degrees including a PhD in sacramental theology from the London School

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of Theology, a doctorate of ministry in spiritual formation from the Reformed Theological Seminary,

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and a doctorate of Anglican Studies from Virginia Theological Seminary.

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Susan it doesn't feel like you've had that much time to complete all those degrees and

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write two books, Pet Prayers and the Scriptural Theology of Eucharist Blessings.

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Along with being a contributing author to magazines and other scholarly books, Susan

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has also served as a host at a host of other churches and seminaries, some of which you'll

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hear about today.

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So let's get at it.

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Welcome Susan.

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Yes, hello.

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Your book Pet Prayers caught my attention years ago when you told me you were writing

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it because I am an animal lover and I often have prayed over my pets for various things

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because 1 Peter 5, 7 tells us that we're to give all of our worries to God because he

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cares for us.

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And you know, if you're a pet lover, when your pet is not doing well, it's a worry.

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Let's face it, pets are a huge part of our lives and our families.

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So what inspired you to write that book and what's it really about?

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It's actually a story that's near and dear to my heart and I'm so glad that you're an

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animal lover, Jody.

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I first want to say, talk about relationships in general because the book came out of my

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relationship with my pets.

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And you know, you and me, we've been friends for, should I say this to your audience, 30

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something years.

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Okay, nobody do math out there.

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And it's such a tremendous blessing that our friendship is still alive and well and we've

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been, God has kept us prayer partners all these years.

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And so that makes me think of this theological truth.

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Actually I preached about it in a sermon not long ago and it provides a theological kind

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of basis to the whole idea of the book pet prayers and another question that often comes

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up.

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So here it is.

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Here's the one liner kind of theological underpinning.

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The only thing we take with us when we go to heaven is our relationships.

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The only thing we take with us from this life into the next is our relationships.

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Obviously firstly our relationship with God, because that's the biggie as we transition

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from this life to the next.

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So our relationship with God, our relationships with other souls.

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So you and me, you know, in eternity someday we're going to be talking about this time

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that we shared on your podcast.

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I love it.

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It's all about loving others and God bonds souls together because relationships are eternal.

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And as an animal lover, and as one you'll get this, I've learned that in addition to

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bonding with God and bonding with other humans, God has made us so that we are able to bond

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with animals.

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God cares about all of his creatures.

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God is bonded to his animals.

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Proverbs 12 10 says a righteous person has regard or takes care of the lives of animals.

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And all through the Psalms and other places we read how God's creation proclaims his glory.

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And that isn't just the stars in the sky, it's the animals in our lives.

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So that gets me to how I wrote this book and how I think it came to be and why it's so

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near and dear to my heart.

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It's all about relationships.

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So I had really bonded to my beloved cat, Charis, which by the way, I named her for

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the Greek word Harris, which you and I learned in Greek class.

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Yes, that's so Charis.

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And she was a very, very important relationship in my life.

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And God cared about my bond with Charis and used her many times to comfort me and encourage

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me.

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So when Charis died, I was of course heartbroken and torn apart.

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And I was pastoring a church in Sebastian, Florida.

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And at that time, I was quite a bit younger than the majority of my parishioners.

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I was struggling a bit to build a closer relationship with them because of the age difference and

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circumstances difference.

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So the Sunday after my cat, Charis, died, I opened up to my people from the pulpit when

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I was preaching and I told them how I had taken the liturgy that I used to bury people

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and I rewrote it in order to have it fitting and a meaningful way for me to bury Charis.

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Now at the ShakeOut, you know, that's what we call when we shake the hands, you know,

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as people are leaving the door.

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Oh, yeah.

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At the ShakeOut, the door that day, I had more conversations than I'd ever had before

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at the ShakeOut.

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And people were warmly shaking my hand and giving me hugs and offering me condolences

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and telling me all about their own pets and inviting me to their homes for the first time.

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Not so much to spend time with them, but they wanted me to come over to meet their pets

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and asking me to come over and pray for their pets.

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That's really interesting.

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So Charis's legacy was to help me bond more closely with my people.

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And from there, I began to write other prayers for pets.

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I wrote a pet blessing ceremony.

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Some churches on St. Francis Day, you bring all your pets to church and you pray blessings

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it's a great, great way to bond, great outreach to, you know, people in neighborhood come

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with their pets, even if they never go to church.

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So I wrote prayers for a family for wisdom when you're looking for a new pet, you know,

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selecting the right one is really important.

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There's a bedtime song in this book to help kids learn how to pray by praying for their

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pets.

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And a lot more prayers that I just started writing because of this anointing that just

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came on because of me sharing.

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And then all of those prayers got collected together.

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And eventually that's what's published in the book called Pet Prayers.

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So very personal story.

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And I could go on and on more time than we have about how God has used it to help me

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connect with people who don't even go to church because they love their pets and we have that

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bond in common.

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Oh, I bet.

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Well, the big question we all want to know, of course, Susan, is do pets go to heaven?

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Yes.

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And my publisher gave me only one short page in that book to address it.

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And so so it is a common question.

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And I just want to affirm people it's a valid question.

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It is not just a sentimental peripheral question.

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It's a very, very important question.

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It has a lot of theological, you know, connections to.

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And I have spent quite a bit of time on this question.

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So I offer a resounding answer of yes.

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Yes.

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Hallelujah.

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Yes.

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And it is not.

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I'm not offering just a sentimental answer.

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I don't know if I told you this part.

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You might not have seen this.

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So I'm also a fellow of the Oxford Center for Animal Ethics.

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And I could talk a lot about that.

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Go look them up on the website.

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But among us are PhDs who are doing quite a bit of high level academic work about questions

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such as this, because it has to do with souls and it has to do with eternity and it has

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to do with the nature of God and relationships and all of that.

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And so there's a related theological question that's out there these days about the Bible's

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view of a Christian's responsibility to steward creation.

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And so that has something to do with it.

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If animals have souls, then we have greater response.

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So it's a big question.

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So I'm just going to give you two quick.

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And again, cut me off.

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Be brave.

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Just say, OK, let's move on to the next question.

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No, I mean, I want to hear this.

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I want to hear this.

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I mean, my dog, my very dear dog, Riley, died two years ago.

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And for me, I mean, I looked at that verse, you know, where it says the lion will lay

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down with the lamb in in the new heaven.

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And that to me was very comforting, because if the lion and if there's a lion and a lamb

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in heaven, then my dog Riley is probably there, too.

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So you know, that was comforting to me because he was a very dear part of our lives.

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Yes.

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Many, many scriptures that have the just connotation about it.

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And so that kind of scripture speaks the answer.

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Yes.

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I remember it.

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Do you remember Dr. Story?

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So someone asked Dr. Story this question in Greek class once.

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And I don't remember exactly.

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So don't quote me like I'm saying you're telling you exactly what he said.

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But he reported to us in our class that his son had asked him this question and he answered

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it something like this.

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I'm getting, you know, kind of a paraphrase.

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But the idea was, if you need your pet to be in heaven in order for heaven to be heavenly,

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then yes, your pet will be there.

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You know, if you need your pet to be in heaven for it to be heaven, then your pet will be

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there because it's heaven.

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So for me, heaven just wouldn't be heavenly if all of those precious souls that I've bonded

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to and have relationships with in this life that happened to be pets weren't there.

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Wow.

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It would be huge.

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Life here would be missing something.

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And so when I say that to other theologians, sometimes there's the, well, but Jesus is

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your all in all.

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You won't need that in heaven.

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And that's okay.

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And so we don't have time to get into the deeper.

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That's from my perspective, more of a Gnostic view.

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You know, Jesus came to give us life and give us life abundantly.

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Abundant life here and in the forever includes everything that God ever created to make life

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abundant.

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And that includes his creatures.

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I think they're going to be flowers of some kind or whatever beauty is in heaven.

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It's not just going to be me in a white room with no color singing praises for all eternity.

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It's going to be even more beautiful in terms of the new heavens and the new earth.

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Remember and the new earth.

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So whatever God has created is going to be new and better.

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Okay.

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So let me move on.

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That's that's a second point.

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I got to throw in here.

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I got to throw this Leviticus 17 11 says for the life of the flesh is in the blood and

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I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls for it is the blood

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by reason of the life that makes atonement.

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Real quick.

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The word for life and soul in the Hebrew is exactly the same.

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All three places it appears in this verse is translated into the English life in two

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places and soul in one place.

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So it actually says for the nephesh of the flesh is in the blood and I've given it to

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you on the altar to make atonement for your nephesh for it is the blood by reason of the

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nephesh that makes atonement.

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So here just summarizing it.

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Animals have souls is really the question.

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Does an animal have a soul because souls from the Christian worldview don't evaporate at

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death.

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That would be an Eastern view.

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So if an animal has a soul now it's not a soul that needs to be saved because it doesn't

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know the difference between good and evil.

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And so they're in a state of innocence and so they can't send they don't need to be saved

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but just because they don't need to be saved doesn't mean they don't have a soul.

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So animals have a different ontological kind of soul and that soul.

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OK think of it this way in the Old Testament people were sinning right sinning sinning

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sinning and God gave the Old Testament system and the word atonement is used here.

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God gave animal sacrifice for the purpose of making atonement the shedding of animal

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blood the giving of animal souls here in Leviticus 17 11 was the system that God provided for

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atonement.

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Now it wasn't atonement the way that Paul uses the Greek term in the New Testament.

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This is an idea like a credit card.

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Think of all the sin that humans were accumulating and accumulating this huge debt just like

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we have a credit card that covers the expenses but they're not paid for animal souls.

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God says I gave you animal souls as your credit card to make atonement to cover the charge

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the debt of all of that sin until Jesus came to actually pay the bill.

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Do OK.

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So a ton of animal blood does not in the New Testament sense take away or pay the penalty

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of sin but in the Old Testament that whole old set ever thought about animals God blood

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and you know what was all that.

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Yeah there's power in a soul.

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There's power in a soul and the shedding of blood was the giving of the soul.

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It was meant to teach humans the great cost of sin.

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OK.

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Sin means death.

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It was a great big lesson.

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So Jesus came and he's the one who paid the penalty for sin but in the Old Testament animal

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souls for the credit card to cover it until you just got here to handle it all.

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And so you know humans have and there's a whole other thing that we're studying at the

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Oxford Center about ontology.

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The humans we had a perfect state of being before the fall and in the new heavens and

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the new earth we're going to have a perfect state of being.

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You know we won't decay and our whole brains will work whatever that looks like.

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We use 10 percent of it.

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Yeah.

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Well think about this.

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Animals had a perfect state before the fall.

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Animals will get all creation all creation out of perfect state before the fall.

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So in the new heavens and the new earth animals will have a perfect state too.

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So not only will they be there in heaven they're going to be a better version of themselves

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just like we're going to be a better version of ourselves.

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So can you tell that I have been a lot.

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That's discretion.

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I think you've laid laid that question to rest for me.

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Hopefully for all of our listeners out there.

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All right.

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So yeah thank you.

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But Susan your journey with God has been a bit unconventional and fascinating.

256
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But when did that journey begin for you?

257
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How and when did you put your faith in Jesus?

258
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So I'm not one of those people who have this dramatic conversion before and after kind

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of story.

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My testimony is more about God's faithfulness and how he knew how to reach me where I was.

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And so for a number of reasons as a young child I spent a lot of time alone.

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My mom had cancer when I was a toddler.

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Both of my older siblings are let's say strong willed.

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Is that how we say strong willed.

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So I spent a lot of time alone as a young child.

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But my mom did take us to church.

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And so even before I could walk and talk I was hearing the gospel experiencing worship.

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So one of my very first memories.

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I mean if you were to ask me Susan tell me you know on one hand the first memories you

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have ever.

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One of my very first memories is having a conversation with Jesus.

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I was sitting in a rowboat in the canal behind our house alone as I very often was.

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I was I'm guessing eight or nine.

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I don't think mom let me in the rowboat unless I went without her when I was young.

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And I really don't have many memories of interacting with people before that.

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One of my first memories is having a conversation with Jesus.

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And so the way I say it is Jesus is my first friend.

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Chronologically he was my first friend.

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And first in priority he's number one friend.

280
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So that's how it all started.

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Now you skip ahead fast forward to when I was in college.

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Because this is more about how my like grown up commitment kind of part of that question.

283
00:16:55,120 --> 00:17:01,240
So when I was in college not long after I was spirit filled I went on a short term mission

284
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trip.

285
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And that's really where my sense of my whole life is about Jesus.

286
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You know and I have been to a church experience the infilling of the spirit.

287
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You know I was always ready to say yes to whatever God was doing or saying.

288
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My real my whole life is about Jesus was when I was on a short term mission trip.

289
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And this is also when I start sensing a call started sensing again this didn't happen immediately

290
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either.

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I started sensing a call and a full time.

292
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What we would call full everybody I think is in full time industry but the full time

293
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what you do you know what you're what you do when people ask you that question.

294
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I heard the Lord say when I was on the mission field do this meaning what I was doing on

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the mission field do this instead of being a computer programmer.

296
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I was that was a summer after my freshman year in college.

297
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And it took several years after that for that sense of call to clarify and mature.

298
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And by the time I graduated undergraduate I knew that whatever computer job I was going

299
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to get next was kind of a means to an end of being trained and ordained.

300
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So for me the my meeting Jesus was like when I became aware that I was alive.

301
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Have any memory.

302
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I mean there he was he was as real as if I was looking at a person sitting and I was

303
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just talking to him about my day.

304
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Here I am rowing and look at the fish and Jesus was my friend in the rowboat.

305
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The skip ahead to college.

306
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It's really when I started feeling like okay my whole life is about this and she was leading

307
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me in this direction.

308
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So I had no idea you know why God sent me to graduate school until I was well into my

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studies.

310
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I mean I went purely out of obedience.

311
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I had an undergraduate degree of computer programming as well.

312
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So I thought I was going to be a big deal international computer consultant and traveling

313
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the world and making a lot of money.

314
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And then God said no I want you to go to graduate school.

315
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And I you know I wasn't too happy about it.

316
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,320
I made a deal with God and I lost.

317
00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,040
Yeah.

318
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Yes.

319
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So I headed off to school which really was a win for me because I didn't know who I was

320
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:17,440
at that point.

321
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:22,480
I mean we think we know who we are when we're you know teenagers and when we're in college

322
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,960
but we really don't know who we are.

323
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:31,480
I headed off to school and you know started to get a degree in international communications

324
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:38,240
and then while I was there I thought I would be a foolish not to go ahead and get a degree

325
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:39,360
in Bible as well.

326
00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:43,560
I mean here are some amazing men and women of God.

327
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I mean why couldn't why not just take take advantage of it while I was there.

328
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:49,720
So that's that's kind of what brought me there.

329
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:54,160
But I mean you really and God gave me a sense of where I was going there.

330
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,760
But you really had a sense before you got there.

331
00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:57,760
Yes.

332
00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:02,320
So like I said after my freshman year in college I was on the mission field just short term

333
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,440
you know two weeks one of those things kids do and that's when God started talking to

334
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:07,440
me about it.

335
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,040
And back from that mission trip I got really involved in the local church.

336
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:15,120
By that time I was going to the big assembly of God church and I was leading Bible studies

337
00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:20,200
in my home and having an outreach on the campus and really involved.

338
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And so it just grew over the next three four years and I knew that I was going to need

339
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some kind of education.

340
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,280
You can't just be a cobalt programmer and then get in a pulpit you know.

341
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I was really excited.

342
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,480
I didn't feel ready.

343
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And so I looked at several graduate schools and Regent was the one that I felt called

344
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to and God confirmed that direction by giving me a job.

345
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I got a job at UNISIS first before I joined you at CBN.

346
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,120
And so the fact that all of the pieces came together.

347
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So I got a job.

348
00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:55,240
So I was able to afford to move to.

349
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I was living in Florida undergrad.

350
00:20:57,460 --> 00:21:04,400
So my job in Virginia Beach gave me the finances to be able to move to where the school was.

351
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,640
That I wanted to go to and like you I was working and going to school.

352
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,220
And so God really just wove all of that together.

353
00:21:11,220 --> 00:21:14,320
And like you just said exactly Jody I was still figuring it out.

354
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:19,760
I felt called in a direction and I was still figuring out exactly what that was going to

355
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:20,760
look like.

356
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,880
And so the MDiv program was ongoing discernment.

357
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:24,880
I knew the direction.

358
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:29,280
I really didn't know much about the details.

359
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:30,280
So it's interesting.

360
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:35,280
I mean you grew up in a Lutheran church and then you were going to an Assemblies of God

361
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:36,280
church.

362
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,960
So how and when did you decide to become an Episcopal or Anglican priest?

363
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:42,960
I mean that's a big departure.

364
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:43,960
Yes.

365
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,280
So Lutherans and Episcopalians are kind of like cousins.

366
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:52,920
You just think Germany for Lutheran and think England for Anglican in terms of Protestantism

367
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:54,640
at its beginnings.

368
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:59,760
And then a lot of other things came out of those too and Calvin Presbyterian.

369
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,800
So Lutheran and Episcopal is very close.

370
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:07,480
I started going to the Assembly of God church in college because they had this big lively

371
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,280
young adult group, people my age.

372
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,320
And I grew up in this tiny Lutheran church.

373
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I was like one of the only ones in my age group.

374
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:20,200
So it was so novel and exciting to have that social part of a group.

375
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,200
And that's really I didn't know anything about the theological differences.

376
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:28,840
I just went where it looked like it was going to be fun in college.

377
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,280
And so but that's where I learned about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

378
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,360
I hadn't heard about that in my Lutheran church, although I was pretty solid on the gospel

379
00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:36,360
message itself.

380
00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:42,320
You know how to know Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior and like that.

381
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,040
But in terms of the Spirit, gifts of the Spirit, the importance of Bible study, all of that

382
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,440
I learned in the Assemblies of God world.

383
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:49,960
I'm so thankful for that.

384
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,720
So when I got to Regent, I started visiting.

385
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,920
I think you and I even talked about we visited here and there some together.

386
00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:00,400
I think our paths occasionally outside the class, you like that.

387
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,160
And I looked for Lutheran churches, nothing clicked.

388
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,880
I went to some Assembly of God churches off and on.

389
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:13,280
And finally, eventually I found the Episcopal Church in Chesapeake.

390
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:14,280
George Stockwell was there at the time.

391
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,220
I don't know who's the director there now.

392
00:23:16,220 --> 00:23:19,740
So it was a Spirit filled Episcopal Church.

393
00:23:19,740 --> 00:23:25,280
So they were all the gifts of the Spirit at the same time having communion.

394
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:30,480
And those were the two things that really fed my soul was everything the Spirit wanted

395
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:35,920
to do, but also being able to kneel and feel that reverence at the altar of communion,

396
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,680
because I grew up with that.

397
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,040
And so I was missing it actually in the AG world.

398
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,080
And so, yeah, that's how I ended up Episcopalian.

399
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:47,320
I just didn't find a Lutheran church that fit or an AG church that fit.

400
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,640
And I went to Episcopal Church and knelt at the altar and someone had prophetic word for

401
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,000
me while I was receiving communion.

402
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,440
And I thought, oh, I'm home.

403
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:56,440
This works for me.

404
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:57,440
Yeah.

405
00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:58,440
Yeah.

406
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,020
So that's how that all came together.

407
00:24:01,020 --> 00:24:05,120
So for listeners who aren't familiar really with the Episcopal or Anglican expression of

408
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:10,760
the Christian faith, how would you describe it?

409
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,140
Anglican is just, it just refers to any Christian church.

410
00:24:14,140 --> 00:24:15,140
So it's Christian.

411
00:24:15,140 --> 00:24:18,720
Jesus is Lord, the Bible is true, you know, the whole thing.

412
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,680
Anglican is Christian.

413
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:25,400
And it's refers to the group of churches that trace their origins back to the Christians

414
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:26,400
in England.

415
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:32,200
And by the way, that started in the first century AD, very early, the first decades,

416
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,160
because the disciples of the original apostles, polycarp, those kind of people, they went

417
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:37,480
over there.

418
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:44,280
So we within a generation of the writing of the New Testament, we have a church in Britain.

419
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:49,560
And so Christianity is almost as ancient there as anywhere else in the world, except for

420
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,920
perhaps Rome and Jerusalem, obviously.

421
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:59,480
So Anglicanism defines itself as those churches that trace their roots back to that mother

422
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,480
church, if you will, in the region of England.

423
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:08,880
And then the term Episcopal is just the American word for Anglican, because Revolutionary War

424
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,760
separated from England.

425
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,440
In England, the church and the monarchy were all wrapped up together.

426
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,960
So if we're revolting against the monarchy, we're also revolting.

427
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,240
So anyway, they had to have a different word because they weren't going to be part of the

428
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,520
English monarchy or church system anymore.

429
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:30,600
So Anglicans after the Revolutionary War in America just started referring to themselves

430
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:35,080
as Episcopal, which by the way, it just comes from the word Episcopal, which is the word

431
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,440
we get this bishop from.

432
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:42,520
And it just means our commitment is that every pastor needs a pastor.

433
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,560
A bishop is a pastor of pastors.

434
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,800
And so I have a pastor, even though I'm a pastor.

435
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,800
But we're not as hierarchical as, say, Orthodox or Roman Catholics, where you'd keep going

436
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:58,300
up from there, that then bishops would have somebody and somebody and somebody after that.

437
00:25:58,300 --> 00:26:04,000
So we're kind of a flat hierarchical group where every pastor needs a pastor.

438
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,280
So we don't have any pastors that are like in an independent church.

439
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:15,200
And that's where we would probably find our distinction about why we're called that.

440
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:26,200
The just a little bit of an aside, the place I learned most about the Episcopal world,

441
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:33,640
I mean, I went to a couple of Episcopal churches services over time, but was reading Jane Karen's

442
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:42,540
series on the Mitford series with Father Tim, who was a Episcopalian rector in a small little

443
00:26:42,540 --> 00:26:44,440
town in the mountain town.

444
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:55,480
And I just fell in love with the way that he approached and the Episcopal faith kind

445
00:26:55,480 --> 00:27:01,280
of approached their faith and serving people in the community.

446
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,280
And of course, every pastor and rector is their own person.

447
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,280
But that's an aside.

448
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,440
Just anyone out there wants to read a good series.

449
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:10,440
Well said.

450
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:15,880
That's one reason why we have some of the nomenclature we do like we say parish instead

451
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:22,920
of church, because our view of church is universal or even at least diocesan, a big region.

452
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,880
So there's this big movement that's going on about the church distributed.

453
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:27,880
It was so funny.

454
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:32,780
I was getting my demon degree and they took us to this big church that was starting this

455
00:27:32,780 --> 00:27:37,240
new system and they were so excited about having discovered this way to do big church

456
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:38,520
better.

457
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,840
And so they were describing how the big church in the kind of middle of the geography was

458
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,760
going to have these outstations and they're going to have an outstation over there and

459
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,760
we're going to have kind of like a sub pastor in that neighborhood.

460
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,080
And then we're going to have a sub pastor over there in that neighborhood and we're

461
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:54,800
going to call it a church distributed.

462
00:27:54,800 --> 00:28:01,280
I just had to chuckle because it's like, well, that's a mother church with a bishop and

463
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,880
then you have pastors, priests in there, parishes.

464
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,960
So a parish is never really meant to get huge.

465
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:16,160
The idea is to have a couple hundred people that you're really pastoring and focusing

466
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,120
on those, but you're not all by yourself.

467
00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:27,040
I'm part, you know, most diocese get to be 50, 60, 70 churches and, you know, I have

468
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,340
50 pastors that I'm friends with.

469
00:28:29,340 --> 00:28:33,760
And when we get together for that kind of diocesan event, we have, you know, 10,000

470
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,480
people and it's as big as a mega church, but we just don't try to get together with the

471
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,920
whole mega church every Sunday.

472
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:46,240
So yeah, just so you know, the idea of a diocese and a bishop, that's really what this idea

473
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,800
of a distributed church is rediscovering.

474
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:53,640
You have a central church with the main pastor, that would be the bishop.

475
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,880
And then you have your sub pastors that are out there in the neighborhoods taking care

476
00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,440
of smaller groups of people.

477
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:08,880
Yeah, I think that makes it a little more relatable to people who aren't in that world.

478
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,240
Yeah, relationships, it's all about relationships.

479
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:18,480
So you became a rector, a pastor, and you were served at several churches while you

480
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:24,280
were also getting your numerous doctor's degrees, which is, that's a big challenge.

481
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,880
So what motivated you to do all of that all at once?

482
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,160
And how were you, really, my question is, how were you able to keep a vibrant relationship

483
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,080
with the Lord while you were under all that pressure?

484
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:39,040
I mean, you're a doctorate degree is, that's a big deal.

485
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,840
And you didn't go to, you know, I mean, we went to some no-nonsense schools.

486
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,060
Yeah, the 7-Eleven.

487
00:29:46,060 --> 00:29:48,200
So I have two thoughts about that.

488
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:57,360
The first is maintaining that conversation I had with Jesus in the rowboat.

489
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,200
I have to keep it personal.

490
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:07,480
I have to be able to see the face of Jesus and hear his voice in my daily walk.

491
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,560
And of course, I go through times where, you know, the dark night of the soul, I don't

492
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,640
know if you've read about, you know, we go through seasons where it's easier or harder.

493
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:22,280
But by and large, that's a desire of my heart that I have to keep as my first priority.

494
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:28,000
So I'll give you an example of how that kind of interaction with the Lord can keep me healthy

495
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,400
and motivated through all of that blah, blah, blah stuff you just said.

496
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,960
So I've been ordained a few years and I was at a clergy retreat.

497
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,560
And actually, statistically, some people who get ordained in whatever denomination of the

498
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:48,360
Christian faith, a few years and there's a high, what's the word for you lose them?

499
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,760
Anyway, a lot of people drop out after not too long.

500
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:57,640
So I was hitting that, you know, is this life going to be, am I in it for the long haul?

501
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,600
Like in the military, do you do your four years and you're done?

502
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:01,600
Or are you a liar?

503
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:07,880
You know, and so I was at a clergy retreat and during worship, I heard the Lord, not

504
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:13,640
a prophetic word outside, but inside my soul, I heard the Lord speak to me in that special

505
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,680
way like when we're in the rowboat or when I'm in the mission field, you know, that kind

506
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:19,160
of speak to me.

507
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:25,080
And he simply said this phrase, no ceilings.

508
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,040
Isn't it amazing how succinct God is?

509
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,720
Okay, I got to learn from God more about how to do that.

510
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:30,720
How to be succinct.

511
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,200
God just said no ceilings.

512
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,120
How succinct and powerful God's word is.

513
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:43,560
So in that moment, I felt released from all those expectations of what a quote unquote

514
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,200
normal priest's ministry should look like.

515
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:51,600
The expectation of just filling in the job description or whatever church that already

516
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,720
existed that I could convince them to hire me, you know, that whole system.

517
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,960
I just felt so released from all of that.

518
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:05,800
And God launched me on a path that led to me rebuilding failing churches, three of the

519
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:10,160
churches where I was a pastor, they were almost ready to close their doors and God brought

520
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:11,160
me in.

521
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,760
And by the way, I used some of that systems analysis training that we got, you know, a

522
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:16,760
system.

523
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,280
A computer programmer's taught systems analysis.

524
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:24,480
So the bishop put me in some places that needed to be analyzed and their whole system needed

525
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,360
to be redone, just like you're in a business.

526
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,880
If it's not working, you're going to fix it.

527
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:29,880
You know what?

528
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:30,880
Yeah.

529
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,240
And so I was a God doesn't waste anything.

530
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:34,240
Yeah, that's right.

531
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,960
So I was just able to step out and do some different kinds.

532
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,320
I was able to think of innovative, different things because there are no ceilings.

533
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,600
You don't have to do it the way everybody's done it before.

534
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:50,120
And I've written about subjects that haven't been written about at least very much before.

535
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,400
I've pioneered a couple of ministries that didn't exist before.

536
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:55,560
And so praise the Lord.

537
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,680
I am just juiced whenever the Lord speaks to me.

538
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:05,880
I am motivated whenever he speaks to me that kind of word and no ceilings was one of them.

539
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:11,360
I actually asked Oz Guinness that same question at a different clergy conference some years

540
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,360
later.

541
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,200
I asked him almost exactly the same thing.

542
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,280
And he took a moment to reflect.

543
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,080
And then he said one profound word.

544
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,760
See I'm still haven't learned that succinctness.

545
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:21,760
Okay.

546
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:22,760
He said one.

547
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,000
He said one word.

548
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:26,000
Worship.

549
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,800
And then of course I teased it out of him and he kept talking about it.

550
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,280
But basically I've learned that my time alone with God with my guitar.

551
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,880
I don't say I'm not like a praise leader for get up in front of a church.

552
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:43,840
But I got to play my guitar and sing the praise songs I know from memory and close my eyes

553
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,200
and enter into that holy place.

554
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:51,600
My time with worship alone but also gathered together with others who love Jesus being

555
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,320
in that communal worship.

556
00:33:53,320 --> 00:34:00,760
So I would say worship like Oz Guinness said worship recharges my batteries and it helps

557
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:05,280
me to know what direction to go because you sense where the holiness is.

558
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:06,280
Worship.

559
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:07,280
Yeah.

560
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,160
In the holy place pressure is relieved.

561
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,800
You get into the holy place and it's like that old fashioned pressure cooker.

562
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,800
Pressure is released when you get into the holy place.

563
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,440
Hope is revived when you get into the holy place.

564
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,880
And so I would add to Oz's one word my word enthusiasm.

565
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,640
Have you ever thought about it this way that etymology is E N for the Greek word which

566
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,600
means in I N and then they ask Greek word for God.

567
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:40,920
So when God is in something there will be enthusiasm.

568
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:46,200
And when there's enthusiasm for something that is an indicator of where God is.

569
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:52,680
And if I stick to the narrow path in life that is defined by authentic enthusiasm that

570
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:53,680
God is putting in my heart.

571
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,320
You know I'm not trying to do what everybody else says and blah blah blah.

572
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,680
You know God says no ceilings.

573
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:04,440
Stick with the enthusiasm that I put in your heart and that's where he that's how he points

574
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:09,440
me where to go and that's how he gives me the energy to go there.

575
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:18,240
It's all about God given not artificially revved up but God given enthusiasm that I

576
00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:22,280
find while I'm in worship.

577
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:29,560
And I think that is so key that anybody can can know if God is in something.

578
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:35,000
Is there that that joy that welling up that enthusiasm about doing something that doesn't

579
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:43,760
fade as soon as you step away from the motivational speaker or whatever you're hearing.

580
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,840
You can get excited enthused about anything if somebody is enthusiastic enough about it.

581
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,720
Well if God is enthusiastic in your soul then it doesn't fade.

582
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:56,280
Yes in that sense excitement is very different than enthusiasm.

583
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:57,280
Yeah.

584
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:58,280
Yeah.

585
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,000
So pastoral ministry is a challenging call.

586
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,560
And as a single woman in that calling you've you know what what have been your greatest

587
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,800
challenges and some of your some of your highest joys.

588
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:15,760
I mean it's you know you're you're in an unusual position for a woman and even as a single

589
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:17,240
woman it's even more unusual.

590
00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:23,400
Yeah I remember when I first got ordained I was the only single person getting ordained

591
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,240
and I was the only female getting ordained.

592
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:29,680
So yes from the beginning I have felt odd.

593
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:34,280
I felt different and I have felt lonely.

594
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,000
Every human heart desires to feel understood.

595
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:46,040
And so often part of my offering to God is that I'm willing to sacrifice that need of

596
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:52,700
feeling understood by people and really learn how to get my need to feel understood directly

597
00:36:52,700 --> 00:36:54,440
from God.

598
00:36:54,440 --> 00:37:01,000
And you know in first Corinthians seven Paul talks a lot about this.

599
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:06,000
So he says actually that it's better to stay single if you can.

600
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:12,320
But in our culture that just to be frank the church world doesn't make it easier in the

601
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,160
Protestant world at least it doesn't does not make it easier for a single person to

602
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:17,160
be ordained.

603
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:18,160
It's harder.

604
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:19,160
It's harder.

605
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,740
You get I had to jump through more hoops and prove all kind of things anyway.

606
00:37:21,740 --> 00:37:26,680
So Paul says it's better to stay single if you can not just to full time ministers but

607
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,440
to Christians.

608
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,680
If you can handle it Paul says it's better to stay single.

609
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,800
He says you will be more focused on the things of the Lord.

610
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,680
You won't be divided between how to please the Lord and please a spouse.

611
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:41,720
You'll be more single minded in your ministry.

612
00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:44,460
You'll have more time to devote to the kingdom.

613
00:37:44,460 --> 00:37:49,960
And Paul in first Corinthians seven even uses the word happier.

614
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,000
If you're single you will be happier if you stay that way.

615
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,480
Now how often in the Protestant world have we heard a sermon like that.

616
00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:02,040
You know in the Catholic world they have a different view of why you do that and what

617
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,160
it looks like and what it's for and all that.

618
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:09,280
But the Protestants when we tossed out some of Catholicism we tossed out some of the good

619
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,040
messages too.

620
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:16,800
And there's a good message here to hold up singleness as not something to think is weird

621
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:18,400
or undoable.

622
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,240
But Paul says it's better for many reasons.

623
00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:26,080
And you know I wanted to have a husband and children as much as any other woman did.

624
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:30,380
God didn't you know supernaturally take away the desire.

625
00:38:30,380 --> 00:38:33,160
So in my 20s and 30s I really wrestled.

626
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,200
Hey God.

627
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:36,200
I wrestled.

628
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:37,200
It was hard.

629
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:38,800
I wrestled with the Lord about this.

630
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:44,920
But as time went by I saw more and more what the Lord was able to do in my life and how

631
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,800
he had anointed me to do certain things.

632
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,600
And I became much more content.

633
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,720
As Paul says I have learned how to be content with a lot or a little.

634
00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:54,560
I've learned how to be content being single.

635
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,000
It wasn't easy.

636
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,920
But I have found that it's better.

637
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:01,080
I'm just going to say it.

638
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,760
So if you're single out there listening consider staying that way.

639
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,400
Paul says it's better.

640
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,760
I want to lift it up because it's not lifted up enough.

641
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,440
You know and I find something that you said there Susan is so critical.

642
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:21,680
You know if you're single you can spend more time focused on the Lord and on his purposes.

643
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:23,440
And I know I was single for many years.

644
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,760
I didn't get married until I was you know a month shy of 40.

645
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:35,460
And I when I was single and thinking I was missing out on being married I was miserable.

646
00:39:35,460 --> 00:39:40,400
But there came a day where I realized I love my life.

647
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:48,720
I love what God is allowing me to do in my life and I am not going to.

648
00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:54,000
Mourn away the opportunities that he's given me.

649
00:39:54,000 --> 00:40:01,240
And after that my whole perspective changed and I was so much more fulfilled in what God

650
00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:02,240
had me doing.

651
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:04,760
Now God did ultimately have me get married.

652
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:10,120
But for many years I think you know when you're single you can miss so much of what God wants

653
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:17,560
you to do because you many people have that expectation that they won't be fulfilled until

654
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,520
they're married.

655
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:24,640
Right right or that there's an expectation that you should be or fill in the blank of

656
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,120
all the reason why it's better if you get married.

657
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,760
Well we have to remember there are reasons that it's better to say single.

658
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:35,320
And I'll also just add a footnote on that.

659
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,100
I haven't missed anything.

660
00:40:38,100 --> 00:40:44,580
I've had the privilege of being invited into the families of all of my congregations.

661
00:40:44,580 --> 00:40:49,440
So I share in the milestones all those milestones that you have in life.

662
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,080
Births I'm there.

663
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,440
Baptisms I'm there.

664
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:55,440
Weddings I'm there.

665
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:56,440
Graduations I'm there.

666
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,960
Funerals I'm there.

667
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:00,760
So I haven't missed out on any of that.

668
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:07,120
And if anything I've actually had them in more abundance.

669
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:14,560
And it's a privilege to be invited and treated like a family member at all of those times.

670
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:20,440
And I've been able to do a lot of the things that I've done because I had the time and

671
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:25,120
I'm not sure I would have had the time if I was committed to being a good wife a good

672
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,840
mother because those are high callings.

673
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:29,640
So let me yeah let me say it this way.

674
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:30,640
It's all about calling.

675
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:34,320
Ultimately I had to realize that God wasn't calling me.

676
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:35,320
At least he hasn't yet.

677
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:36,320
Hey God you still could.

678
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:37,320
If you wanted to.

679
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:38,320
I'm open to that.

680
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:39,320
You can still call me to marriage if you want to.

681
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,880
I'm not saying that you know you can't do that.

682
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:49,360
I can see a lot of the fun a lot of good that would be so I'm not down on marriage.

683
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:55,240
But my calling thus far in life God hasn't called me to be a wife.

684
00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:56,680
God hasn't called me to be a mother.

685
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:01,280
But those are callings and you need to have an anointing to be a wife to be a mother and

686
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:07,000
that isn't the shape that the anointing God put on me has taken.

687
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:08,400
So I'm going to switch gears on you a little bit.

688
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:14,160
In the past in the past few decades actually the Episcopal Church in the U.S. took a turn

689
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:20,280
away from some of the biblical norms regarding sexuality that caused a lot of the Episcopal

690
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:25,960
churches in the U.S. to leave that denomination and align with kind of a new denomination

691
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,200
called the global Anglican Church.

692
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:35,680
And the churches and clergy that made that decision paid a pretty big price for it.

693
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:41,920
You had to make that decision and you know count the cost of what leaving the Episcopal

694
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:43,800
Church would mean.

695
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,800
What did you do and how did you make that decision?

696
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:48,200
Well I didn't rush into it.

697
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,240
I actually took quite a bit of time.

698
00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:51,880
I didn't do it alone.

699
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:55,260
I was with a group of other like-minded clergy.

700
00:42:55,260 --> 00:43:00,640
So I was careful, I was cautious, and I was communal about it.

701
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:02,400
I didn't take it lightly.

702
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:07,840
But it was serious enough where a critical mass of us felt like something needed to be

703
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:08,840
done.

704
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:14,320
So yes I am one of the priests who was originally ordained in the Episcopal denomination.

705
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:20,840
But then that institution began embracing unbiblical teachings and you just can't support

706
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:25,080
something after a while when it goes too far astray.

707
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:30,040
So I did help establish the denomination that's now called the Anglican Church in North America.

708
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,400
That's the North American expression of the globe.

709
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,280
America is not the only one going through this.

710
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:40,000
Remember the Anglicanism is one of the largest expressions of Christianity on the planet

711
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:44,160
and that's because the British Empire was the biggest empire that's ever been on the

712
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,040
planet and everywhere the British Empire went the Anglican Church went.

713
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:49,600
And so the Anglican Church is huge.

714
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,880
We have one of the denominations with the biggest numbers in the world.

715
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,800
I don't remember the stats off the top of my head.

716
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,900
And so this is affecting Anglicans all around the world.

717
00:43:59,900 --> 00:44:06,320
And so in North America those of us who wanted to stay just stay with the biblical moorings

718
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:13,960
we've always had had to quote unquote start a newer institution called the Anglican Church

719
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:14,960
in North America.

720
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:21,000
So yes even though it's new the way we look at it is we just stay put with the original

721
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:27,360
biblical commitments that we've made while the institution of the Episcopal Church started

722
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,840
changing some of its commitments.

723
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:33,040
And it was worth it.

724
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:34,760
It was worth all the change.

725
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:35,760
Change is hard.

726
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,400
When you made that transition you left a bit of security.

727
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:43,160
I mean you probably pension and health insurance and probably some other things.

728
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:48,880
But I know God is always faithful to show us his way when we step out of faith.

729
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:49,880
How has he led you?

730
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:51,840
What has he done for you in all of that?

731
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:57,000
I have had to learn how to walk by faith at a whole new level.

732
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:04,440
And I would say that it's a lesson that the North American Christendom can learn from

733
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:11,080
the global south Christians and others that we're used to having a predictable financial

734
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:12,080
future.

735
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,920
So in the Episcopal Church I could predict what my income was going to be as years went

736
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:21,080
by because there was a grid and I could when I'm in my 30s plan what my retirement was

737
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:22,680
going to look like.

738
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:24,740
I'm not in that boat anymore.

739
00:45:24,740 --> 00:45:31,500
And so when I left the Episcopal Church there was no money, no guarantees, no nothing nada.

740
00:45:31,500 --> 00:45:39,320
And so my path is much more like the way a campus crusade staff person raises their support.

741
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:40,980
So that's what I had to learn how to do.

742
00:45:40,980 --> 00:45:47,240
So the Atlas Theological Center, which I and a friend of mine who is a lawyer incorporated,

743
00:45:47,240 --> 00:45:50,720
we're a 501c3, all approved, all of that.

744
00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:54,920
So I had to start a brand new 501c3 and I had to raise money.

745
00:45:54,920 --> 00:46:00,280
So Atlas has monthly supporters, just like a campus crusade staff person, you know, raises

746
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,200
their support.

747
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:09,880
And that monthly support that I've raised supports myself, the ministry of Atlas.

748
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:15,680
And right now Atlas is subsidizing the church where I pastor because where it's a new church

749
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:20,400
plant with about 20 people so far, we started with one, anyway about 20.

750
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:25,440
So it's a tiny little church plant, it's not quite able to be self-sufficient yet.

751
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:30,440
And so the money raised from the Atlas Theological Center is subsidizing, we're planting a church

752
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:31,880
basically.

753
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,520
And look at all this stuff that God has done because I was willing to step out in faith

754
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:37,680
in a way that I never would have done.

755
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:44,880
You know, I have had to let go of the secular and even religious institutions have these

756
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:49,760
mindsets of how much you should be earning, you know, on grid, right?

757
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,400
You work for a job a certain amount of time, this is how much you expect to be making.

758
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:58,920
So I had to set that aside of what I should be being paid and just be content with what

759
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:00,400
I can be paid.

760
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,080
And God has always made that enough for me.

761
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:07,840
It's not what would be on grid, but it's enough.

762
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:12,840
So when I put the kingdom first, all my needs are met and God is faithful.

763
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:17,040
And the result of all of that is I have a much deeper trust for other things too, not

764
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:18,540
just money.

765
00:47:18,540 --> 00:47:24,000
But I have a much deeper trust in the Lord because of the ways that I've had to be out

766
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:25,680
there on that limb.

767
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:26,680
Yeah.

768
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,640
And watch him, watch him provide.

769
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:30,640
It's been good for me.

770
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:32,560
It's been hard, but it's been good for me.

771
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:35,080
I think of that verse, I think it's in Deuteronomy.

772
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:40,800
Well, it's kind of a passage where it talks about how God led the children of Israel for

773
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:41,800
40 years.

774
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:46,240
Their shoes didn't wear out and their clothing didn't wear out and all of those things.

775
00:47:46,240 --> 00:47:47,520
And he does, he does.

776
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:53,820
I've seen it in my own life where if we will fully trust in him, we find out that things

777
00:47:53,820 --> 00:47:56,600
last longer, they work better.

778
00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:00,680
We don't have to spend the money that we thought we were going to have to spend.

779
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:05,640
And he provides, even though it's not cash in hand, he provides in so many other ways

780
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:10,360
that stretches everything to meet our needs.

781
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:14,480
We never know what would have, could have, should have been on a different path.

782
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:19,320
Even if I had stayed in the Episcopal church, I could have, I don't know, had a lot of financial

783
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:23,560
requirements come from left field somewhere and I would be in a worse financial situation

784
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,520
there than I am here.

785
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:33,040
So comparing is not a helpful mental exercise most of the time.

786
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:34,040
Yeah.

787
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,880
So the Atlas Theological Center, it's all about discipleship, right?

788
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:37,880
Yes.

789
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:41,560
I think people grow in their knowledge and character of Christ.

790
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,600
How have you seen God's fingerprints all over that and share some ways that you've seen

791
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:46,600
him at work?

792
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:51,800
I think one of the things I get most excited about is how I see God bringing Christians

793
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:57,960
from many backgrounds and denominations together and even people who want to study but have

794
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:04,160
not had a church connection recently or maybe ever, the nuns or the disconnecteds.

795
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:08,160
We have all these different groups now of people who might identify as Christians, but

796
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:12,120
they wouldn't be like regular churchgoers of whatever kind.

797
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:16,760
And the great thing about Atlas that I've seen God do is because people are still curious.

798
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:21,600
They still want to know, like, do pets go to heaven and why do you think so?

799
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:23,920
Prove to me why you think that.

800
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,360
Convince me that even if I don't agree with you, that you spent time thinking about it,

801
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:32,880
you know, and people want that kind of conversation in a classroom that you can't always have

802
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:37,320
sitting in a pew on a Sunday morning or even at coffee hour or even in a Bible study in

803
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:38,320
a home.

804
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,320
You want someone an opportunity to go deeper.

805
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:47,320
And so what I've seen God do is bring Christians from all these backgrounds together into one

806
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:52,520
classroom and they seek to learn at a deep level.

807
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,560
And we get beyond the surface of things that might separate Christians.

808
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,840
I'll even say, you know, should women be ordained or not?

809
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:00,600
You know, that kind of thing is not right.

810
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,280
Yeah, depending on what you believe in that it's not going to change whether you go to

811
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:04,280
heaven or not.

812
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,680
You know, people who believe it are going to go and people who don't believe they're

813
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:09,560
going to go and I'm right.

814
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:16,080
So Atlas provides an opportunity, a setting for people to study at a deeper level that

815
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,680
they can in a typical church setting of whatever denomination.

816
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:23,960
So I get really excited about seeing hungry Christians get together.

817
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:29,200
So in one classroom of 10 people, I've had five different churches represented all from

818
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:33,440
the same town and then they get to know each other and we're kind of cross pollinating

819
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:38,760
helping Jesus's prayer and John 17 come true about Christians being united wherever they

820
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:39,760
come from.

821
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:43,760
People come to class who don't even go to church, you know, because they're spiritually

822
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:44,760
hungry.

823
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:46,240
So I'm really excited about that.

824
00:50:46,240 --> 00:50:50,160
And then what I see is that that group of people gets bonded with each other.

825
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:51,840
Again, I go back to relationships.

826
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:56,800
They get bonded with each other, relationships, and then when a need comes about, they become

827
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:57,800
the do it crew.

828
00:50:57,800 --> 00:50:58,800
You know what I mean?

829
00:50:58,800 --> 00:50:59,800
Yeah.

830
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:00,800
I do.

831
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,520
They become the do it crew.

832
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:10,480
And so we've had youth projects, outreaches to the needy, well, animal welfare, some overseas

833
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:11,480
involvement.

834
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:17,960
So when I need a do it crew, it turns out to be that group even more often than a subset

835
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:19,840
from one specific church somewhere.

836
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:27,000
So I love the do it crew kind of outcome from the commitment to deeper study.

837
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:28,320
Yeah.

838
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:32,920
So COVID probably changed your model a little bit.

839
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:38,360
And being a computer programmer, you probably went online pretty quickly.

840
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:44,160
So if someone's listening to the podcast and wants to take some courses, what do you offer

841
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:45,760
and how could they go about doing that?

842
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:46,760
Yes.

843
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:48,160
We're so excited that did expand.

844
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:49,320
There are things that shrunk for it.

845
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:52,100
There are things that expanded in the last few years.

846
00:51:52,100 --> 00:51:55,160
And so we've hopefully made it very simple and straightforward.

847
00:51:55,160 --> 00:52:05,520
You just go to our website, www.centeratlas.org and you click on the online studies tab that's

848
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:10,760
at the top of that homepage and you'll be taken to a list of dozens of courses.

849
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:15,800
I teach two right now that I have written and developed myself, but what we're committed

850
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:22,720
to providing is PhD level teachers that you can access economic accessible excellence

851
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:24,280
online.

852
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:30,560
And so the other classes are taught by the seminary professors who wrote the textbooks.

853
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:36,040
So when a textbook gets published these days, the publishers are adding this online curriculum

854
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:38,120
attached to it.

855
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:41,920
And then they get the professor to provide whatever they need to, to help you go through

856
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:43,260
that textbook.

857
00:52:43,260 --> 00:52:47,740
So you find a textbook that you want to study, the person who wrote it will be accessible

858
00:52:47,740 --> 00:52:48,920
to you.

859
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:50,540
And then it's a self-paced study.

860
00:52:50,540 --> 00:52:52,000
Some of those are self-paced.

861
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:57,440
Some of them I teach live when I have enough students sign up for the same class online.

862
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,280
And then I teach in person.

863
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:05,400
So but online anybody can take a class at your own pace from a PhD level person who

864
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:06,640
wrote the textbook.

865
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,400
And I have dozens of those listed that you can choose from.

866
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:14,080
Well, we started our conversation today talking about your book, Pet Prayers, but you have

867
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:21,040
another book I mentioned called The Scriptural Theology of Eucharist Blessings.

868
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:27,080
And many faith traditions use the term communion, which is the same as Eucharist.

869
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:31,560
And of course, your book was written for those studying theology at a master's or even doctoral

870
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:32,560
level.

871
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:37,320
But I'm sure there are nuggets of truth that can be applied to all of our lives to deepen

872
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:38,640
our relationship with God.

873
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:39,640
What are some of those things?

874
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:40,640
Oh, good.

875
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:41,640
I'm so glad you went there.

876
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:42,640
Yes.

877
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:46,560
So by the way, Eucharista, Eucharista, oh, it's just the Greek word for give thanks.

878
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:48,800
We just sometimes keep the Greek.

879
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,320
And so that's why we use the word Eucharist.

880
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:52,320
But you're right.

881
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:55,880
It's called communion, which comes from Koinonia, which is fellowship.

882
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:58,200
So it's all about the fellowship table.

883
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:00,880
And so the book gives little nuggets like that.

884
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:02,440
Just where do the words come from?

885
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,920
It's one big long Bible study, this book.

886
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:11,520
So I do not do a liturgical study about the different liturgies that churches use.

887
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:13,080
It is not a liturgical study.

888
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:17,520
It is not from one point of view of one denomination.

889
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:21,360
It's not about Lutheran's view or Episcopal view.

890
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,420
It's not a historic study.

891
00:54:23,420 --> 00:54:27,960
So it's not about what did Eucharist look like at whatever church or country at whatever

892
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:28,960
time.

893
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:30,080
It's none of that.

894
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:36,040
The question that led me to write this book is if communion is such a big deal, and it

895
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:41,700
is because in some way it's central to almost every kind of Christian church, right?

896
00:54:41,700 --> 00:54:45,400
Almost every kind of Christian church you go to, they're going to say communion is some

897
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,160
kind of big deal.

898
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:51,060
So if that's true, why is communion such a big deal?

899
00:54:51,060 --> 00:54:56,120
What does scripture say about communion and why it's supposed to be such a big deal?

900
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:57,560
That's what my book is.

901
00:54:57,560 --> 00:54:58,840
It's a Bible study.

902
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:00,480
Mostly it's from Exodus.

903
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:04,080
So it could have been listed in addition to a theology book.

904
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:08,200
It's a study from the book of Exodus, from the Gospel of Mark, and Paul's letter to the

905
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:09,200
Corinthians.

906
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:12,280
So it tracks from the Old Testament through the Gospels to the Epistles.

907
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:16,640
So it takes a whole look throughout scripture.

908
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:19,900
And what happened is I didn't go in knowing what I would find.

909
00:55:19,900 --> 00:55:22,040
That was the question I went into this study with.

910
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,920
I spent seven years studying this question.

911
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:31,000
And what I learned is God, this is going to be a big statement for some, but I'm just

912
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:32,680
going to throw it out there.

913
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:35,840
God has told us how he wants us to worship him.

914
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:42,400
God has not left us on our own to figure out what pleases him in a worship service.

915
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:49,680
God provided a paradigm of what right worship is in his sight.

916
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:56,320
And this Bible study reveals the paradigm that God gives in scripture, throughout scripture,

917
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:57,320
not just in one place.

918
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,280
This is big, huge, overarching.

919
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:01,760
This is a big deal to God.

920
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:03,640
This is how I want you to worship me.

921
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:10,880
And the paradigm provides elements of what I call right worship, righteous worship, worship

922
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:14,100
that is right and good in the sight of the Lord.

923
00:56:14,100 --> 00:56:20,600
And so the book unpacks the paradigm and points out these different elements that God says

924
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:26,120
I want you to have as you worship me in any given worship service.

925
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:31,660
And so the book shows how the communion service is the setting.

926
00:56:31,660 --> 00:56:36,960
It's God's given setting to experience God's presence in a powerful way.

927
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:39,560
And the book details what goes into a setting like that.

928
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:45,440
So basically, if you do these things, God promises to show up.

929
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:50,960
God promises to show up if you do worship in this way.

930
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:52,240
And usually we call it...

931
00:56:52,240 --> 00:56:54,800
I mean, I know you wrote a big treatise on it.

932
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:55,800
Yeah.

933
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:59,880
One of them is the greatest commandment, putting God first.

934
00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:03,400
So often you have a call to worship and you proclaim who it is you're there to worship.

935
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,920
You have to be really clear about who it is you're there to worship.

936
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:10,920
And that's not as straightforward as you might think as the church becomes more secular and

937
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:12,240
pluralistic.

938
00:57:12,240 --> 00:57:15,040
So that is not a given always.

939
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:17,720
Another is humility.

940
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:25,080
Even churches that claim and people, myself, claim to be humble, the service can help a

941
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:28,280
person arrive at a more humble state.

942
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:34,320
And that is part of the responsibility of the worship leader, is to help do something

943
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:37,080
to help the humans get to their place.

944
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:40,200
So we recognize God's place, we recognize our place.

945
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:43,680
Often confession is part of that.

946
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:44,680
Figure out a way.

947
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:49,000
I'm not saying you have to say these words or you have to do it in that order.

948
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:55,080
I'm just saying in the paradigm, there are these elements and these elements often have

949
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:57,720
been put together in such and so way.

950
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:00,000
Another one is the word.

951
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:02,240
All the way back to Ezra.

952
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:07,160
You have to have basically a pulpit with the word being read, reading the word and then

953
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:08,880
explaining the word.

954
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:13,360
So it's not just evangelicals who focus on the word.

955
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:19,800
There are parts of the church that could learn again the importance of having the word central.

956
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:25,420
And the table, the bread and wine, whatever you want to call the actual act of receiving

957
00:58:25,420 --> 00:58:31,960
something that God says, you know, I'm going to use that act of obedience.

958
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:32,960
It's a symbol.

959
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,400
It's a physical prayer.

960
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:39,720
So if I'm in a classroom and I say, does anyone have an answer to this question?

961
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:44,760
Someone raises their hand that action is communication.

962
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:46,460
Action is a communication.

963
00:58:46,460 --> 00:58:52,560
And so the paradigm includes physical prayers or things we're called to do with our bodies.

964
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:57,300
It isn't just a mental exercise.

965
00:58:57,300 --> 00:58:59,560
And so that can come out in a variety of different ways.

966
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:02,480
And there are others too, but those are just a little teaser.

967
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:03,480
Yeah.

968
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:04,480
Well, those are good.

969
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:06,560
I mean, and they're not what you would think.

970
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:11,840
It's much bigger than just I'm going to take the bread in a certain way and I'm going to

971
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:14,000
have the wine or the juice in a certain way.

972
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:16,040
It's not, it's, it is bigger.

973
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:17,040
It's about the worship.

974
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:18,880
It's how we approach God.

975
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:25,400
I didn't find God nitpicking on the details in the paradigm, but the parts of the paradigm

976
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:30,840
that are there are repeated over and over and over again in multiple ways to the point

977
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:33,520
where like, I was convinced these things are important to God.

978
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:38,160
And if we want to encounter Him in the most powerful way we can, the idea is positioning

979
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:39,160
ourselves.

980
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:44,880
How can we position ourselves to be most receptive to God's presence?

981
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:48,120
And a lot of this has to do with how do we position ourselves in God's presence?

982
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:51,600
Of course, God's always there, but how do we position ourselves?

983
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:53,880
And the paradigm teaches us how to do that.

984
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:56,480
Oh, Susan, I could have a long conversation.

985
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:59,520
We're going to have to just get, take some of our conversations offline.

986
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:03,080
I think it's going to be a joy talking to you.

987
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:06,800
So as we end, I'd like to ask my guests if there's a woman of the Bible whose story is

988
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:11,520
inspired, encouraged, or taught you something and how her stories connects with yours.

989
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:13,520
Mary Magdalene is one of my favorites.

990
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:18,880
And I have a whole study about why I believe she is Martha's sister and Lazarus' sister.

991
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:20,760
So I've done a lot of work with her.

992
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:23,720
The term Magdala is not a geographic term.

993
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:25,120
It's actually a new name.

994
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:30,960
Like Saul was named Paul or Simon Peter.

995
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,000
Simon was called Peter.

996
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:35,920
Mary is the Magdala.

997
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:39,440
And Magdala means pulpit.

998
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:44,640
And she was the first person to proclaim that Jesus was resurrected.

999
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:49,840
And so yeah, I really see Mary Magdalene as more important than most realize, but not

1000
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:55,360
in the ways that the pop culture or Jesus Christ superstar or whatever those might say,

1001
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:56,720
the reasons why she's big.

1002
01:00:56,720 --> 01:01:01,820
I think she's really important because she was a woman with no ceilings.

1003
01:01:01,820 --> 01:01:05,600
She wanted to learn from Jesus when women weren't expected to learn.

1004
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:08,840
She was willing to open her mouth and say that he's resurrected when people weren't

1005
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:11,920
expecting a woman to say something like that.

1006
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:17,120
She was willing to fashion her whole life to go where he went and to follow in his footsteps

1007
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:19,920
and to sacrifice whatever it took to do that.

1008
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:22,840
So yeah, she's one of my heroes.

1009
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:28,800
Well, your journey, Susan, reminds me of Psalm 32 eight, where God says, I will instruct

1010
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:30,480
you and teach you in the way you should go.

1011
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:34,040
I will counsel you with my loving eye on you.

1012
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:41,080
Verse 10 says the Lord's unfailing love surrounds the one who trusts in him.

1013
01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:47,360
For all those who are listening, God is faithful to teach us all the way we should go.

1014
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:50,080
He leads some into the beauty of motherhood.

1015
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:53,680
Others he places in the marketplace to be a testimony of his goodness.

1016
01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:59,320
Some like Susan, he calls to spend themselves equipping other saints for work of service,

1017
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:02,840
while still others so into ministry through finances, volunteering and more.

1018
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:07,360
In fact, as a company of women, we can join together to make a huge impact in caring for

1019
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:09,680
widows and orphans in their distress.

1020
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:14,480
I invite you to join us with a gift at her God story.org by clicking on the widow and

1021
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:17,180
orphans tab to help us with that.

1022
01:02:17,180 --> 01:02:23,000
But wherever God leads you, trust him for his unfailing love surrounds you.

1023
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:27,080
Check out the show notes to see information on the Atlas Theological Center as well as

1024
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:32,760
Susan's books and go to her God story.org for blogs, free resources and to find out

1025
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:36,080
more about the somebody cares widows and orphans fund.

1026
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:42,200
If you need prayer, feel free to call or text the somebody cares 24 seven prayer line at

1027
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:49,400
855-459-CARE or email us at prayer at somebody cares.org.

1028
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:55,000
Susan, would you pray for everyone who hears this episode of her God story and and then

1029
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:56,680
pronounce a closing blessing?

1030
01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:57,680
Oh, sure.

1031
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:01,240
It would be my privilege, my pleasure.

1032
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:04,840
Precious Jesus, precious Jesus.

1033
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,660
You are precious, Jesus.

1034
01:03:07,660 --> 01:03:14,720
You have sent the Holy Spirit to be our comforter and our guide and our protector and our quipper

1035
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:19,520
and our healer and our fill in the blank, whatever we need.

1036
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:24,920
God, you know us each as individuals.

1037
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:27,640
And you call us together as a community.

1038
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:31,480
Pray for this community of listeners.

1039
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:37,120
And I pray for each individual as they think of you as the God of no ceilings, as they

1040
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:44,440
think of you as the God who knows them personally and has a uniquely shaped calling for each

1041
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:46,960
person.

1042
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:52,680
Every person listening has a uniquely shaped calling that you've tailor made just for them.

1043
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:59,480
And I pray now for each one that you, oh God, in Jesus name would remove any barriers to

1044
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:02,960
that person fulfilling the calling that you've shaped just for them.

1045
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:05,520
I pray, oh God, that you would raise up the valleys.

1046
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,840
I pray that you would bring down the mountains and that you would create a way.

1047
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:09,840
You are still the creator.

1048
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:13,520
I pray you would create a way forward.

1049
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:22,920
I ask you in Jesus name to rekindle hope, to revitalize compassion, to ignite enthusiasm

1050
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:28,320
all for the glory of God and the extension of your kingdom.

1051
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:34,360
And I pray that the peace of God which passes all understanding would keep your hearts and

1052
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:38,520
minds in the knowledge and love of God and of his son Jesus Christ.

1053
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:42,720
And I do pray that the blessing of God Almighty, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit would

1054
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:45,560
be upon you and remain with you always.

1055
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:49,600
In the merciful and mighty name of Jesus I pray.

1056
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:50,600
Amen.

1057
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:56,040
Her God Story is a ministry of Somebody Cares America and International.

1058
01:04:56,040 --> 01:05:00,200
To find out more about or support the ministry, go to somebodycares.org.