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Jan. 22, 2024
What Happens When We Die? w/ Shaun Tabatt
“We need to embrace the hope of heaven, and know that it’s a real place where our Savior is waiting for us.” - Shaun Tabatt
As followers of Christ, we know that there is a life beyond this one we find ourselves in. But what does that life look like? What is the experience of going to Heaven like? What happens to someone when they have a near-death experience? In this episode, Liz connects with Shaun Tabatt, Acquisitions Publishing Executive at Destiny Image Publishing, host of The Shaun Tabatt Show, and is the co-author of Near Death Experiences: 101 Short Stories That Will Help You Understand Heaven, Hell, and the Afterlife. Over the course of his research gathering hundreds of stories and testimonies of those who have experienced the afterlife, Shaun has discovered core consistencies and truths that provide a glimpse into the realities of Heaven.
Shaun’s desire in gathering this research, and in sharing these stories, is to help create a more effective vocabulary for conversations about the afterlife, and what we will encounter there. He shares stories of people having out-of-body experiences, describing the initial confusion and unknowability of the situation, but also shares about the invitation to move towards a bright light, and the heavenly realm experiences that people have as they go. Some experience an impasse, or note the contrast between a place of darkness and a place of light, but some of those who move towards Heaven describe the landscape of a place where loved ones are free and whole again, where nature sings in worship to God, and where revelation about lives lived is made known.
He has also noted several “steps” that many of these stories go through as they go onward and return, and shares how these experiences transform the lives of those who have them—and how they can speak insight and hope to every heart. As you listen, we pray that your faith will be stirred and your heart encouraged about what Heaven is like, and the love that awaits each of us when we arrive.
Related Materials:
If you have ever been curious about life beyond the grave, if you've ever doubted whether Heaven really exists, Near Death Experiences is the powerful testimony of life beyond the veil that you've been waiting for.
Shaun Tabatt has collected fascinating stories of near-death experiences and afterlife encounters from ordinary people who have visited Heaven.
Transcript
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I am Liz Wright. Welcome to Live Your Best Life. The only thing that matters now is living
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by the power of this wonderful new creation life. We're going to become an undefeatable
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force of radiating glory and we are rising up strong now in this hour.
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Hi family, thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of Live Your Best Life with
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Milla's Wright and I honestly am so excited. I've been so looking forward to today's conversation.
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My special guest joining me is the publishing executive or in a publishing executive at
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Destiny Image Publishing. He's also the host I should say. I'm jumping ahead on myself
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there. He's the host of Sean Tabbitt Show. He's also co-author now of literally one
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of the most outstanding books I think I've ever read. It's called Near Death Experiences,
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101 stories that help us understand heaven, hell and the afterlife. And honestly, I could
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not put the book down. It's so interesting. The content in there is so faith enhancing
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and just compelling. Anyway, you're going to hear more from my special guest joining
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me today who is the co-author of the book. As I said, Sean Tabbitt, Sean, welcome.
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Well, Liz, thank you so much for inviting me to your podcast and for all of your kind
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words about the book. This is a book that was birthed out of an interesting and difficult
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time in my life. And so it's just, it's been fun to get reports of how it's touched people
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and just how it's been impacting people. So I always appreciate any level of feedback.
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So thank you for that kindness. I just love it. I mean, it's clearly, it's
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obvious to me that in writing it, you, you seriously do have a mission. Like you really
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do want to bring comfort and through uncertainty through trying to help us gain an understanding
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of what happens when we leave this earth, right? And that was the thing that came across
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to me as I was reading it. It was just hope, hope, hope. There's a ton of evidence out
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there now, guys. Hope, hope. And the stories that you share is like, oh my gosh, I have
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to talk to this man. So tell me just in beginning, just how did you end up working on the research
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and putting that book together? Because it's such a brilliant and fascinating subject.
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I thought everyone has a journey, don't they? So what was a bit of your journey? How did
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you end up writing it? Yeah, I kind of haphazardly fell into the near death experiences space.
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The first two books I read were John Burke's book, Imagine Heaven, which almost everybody
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in our circles have, they've read that one. And then I had worked with Randy on his book,
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Dynamite Jesus. And as Providence would have it, we did a podcast interview about that
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book about three and a half years ago, and it went viral. And then we just started doing
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content of him and me interviewing other people who'd had these near death experiences.
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And that was really in the midst of the turmoil with the lockdowns and church closures and
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COVID and everything crazy that was going on. And all of a sudden, we sort of fell into
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this space where we started getting testimonies of people saying, I watched your interview
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with so and so, and I've been distant from the Lord and I've rededicated my life, or
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I watched this interview with that person. And I got healed during, we're just watching
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the interview. And so we just started getting hundreds and hundreds of testimonies through
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Randy's ministry of, you know, people just watching an interview and their lives being
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transformed. Now, I've been interviewing people for 10 years, Randy's done tons of content
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through the years as an author. And we'd never been in this space where we saw the Holy Spirit
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drop on something so significantly. And it wasn't anything, we were just using the skill
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sets we've used for years. And so that's really how we fell into this space of putting out
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these books about the near death experiences because of what we saw God doing in the midst
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of our YouTube videos and our podcasts. Yeah, so you could see that it was really,
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really needed information. It was the right time, wasn't it, for this message to come
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out. And it impacted me as well, how you were sharing how there are many, many thousands
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more people that have actually had these experiences then have been willing to previously share,
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you know, for perhaps fear of being seen as a religious extremist or whatever, whatever,
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you know, do you mean the negative potential negative impact of people coming and sharing
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these stories. But now so many people are, it's like God's up to something big, you
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know, and it's really restoring hope. Okay, I want to dive into some of the research,
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some of your findings, which is just fantastic content. So questions that I can ask you that
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I know people you guys out there would probably want to ask as well. So number one, what happens
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in your experience having interviewed hundreds of people, probably more than hundreds of
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people, but certainly for the book, you've got 101 selected testimonies from people you've
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interviewed. What have you found that has that happens at the point we die at the point
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we leave our bodies?
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That would tip in terms of the verbiage or the language that we would use. And that that
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I'll just go in a little bit of a side trail hormone. That's one of the things we really
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hope to do with this book is give people vocabulary around how to effectively discuss the afterlife
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and also give them a framework because that's that's really lacked in near death experience
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books in the Christian space. But typically when somebody is entering into a near death
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experience, they've had some kind of a catastrophic accident or some kind of a health event, an
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emergency of sorts, and they enter into what we would typically refer to as an out of body
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experience where their spirit is leaving their body. What that feels like for different
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people, some people will say that they feel like their spirits being pulled out of their
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body. I think when Randy shares his story, he talks about how it felt like his spirit
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like left his stomach of all things. Other people will describe they all of a sudden
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are kind of confused. They don't even realize they're out of their body. Jim Woodford's
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account where he is, he drives out to check on a field that he was about to sell on his
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property and he dies in his truck and he he all of a sudden is like, man, I haven't felt
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this good in years. Oh my gosh, like I've been so sick for so many years and he walks
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out into his field and is looking around and he turns around and he he sees a guy sitting
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in his truck and he's like, what the heck? Why? Why is there he's like, he's getting
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angry. He's like, there's a man sitting in my truck and so he starts moving back in that
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direction. And suddenly he realized it's him sitting in his truck and he's dead. And so
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you know, people often have this temporary timeframe where they actually are inner kind
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of interacting with their day to day environment where they'll try to turn on the light switch
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or touch a wall or what have you and their hands go through things. So it's often a period
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of initial disorientation as they enter into that out of body experience. And usually that
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proceeds with a floating upwards heading towards a light that sort of a thing. But that initial
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out of body experience varies from person to person. But a lot of times has a few of
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those consistent markers of the disorientation and a little bit of time to interact with
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the environment.
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Gosh, it's fascinating, isn't it? And then the other thing that I thought was just incredible
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was how you've been able through the research to identify nine specific things that seem
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to be consistent across everybody's testimonies, even though everybody's testimony is unique
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and specific and profound for them, because each person clearly has come back having had
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this experience. But there are nine consistent pieces that happen in the story to everybody.
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Can you go there? Can you share with us what you found? Because I was reading this going,
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whoa, my God.
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I don't think I have a list of nine in my notes in front of me. But let me talk through
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that too. Like again, that's one of the things that just it hasn't existed in the Christian
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space for these sorts of books. A lot of times we'll share people's testimonies and their
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stories. But we don't have a framework, which I feel like empowers people to talk about
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these, to tell a story. The framework also really helps people who've had these sorts
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of experiences process them on the more mainstream secular side of this publishing space. There's
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a lot of different frameworks. And so in the research, we looked at a bunch of different
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frameworks and just tried to break them down into something a little more concise. We'll
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see how many of them I can remember off the top of my head. But it effectively is going
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through each of the steps. So we started out talking about like, how does somebody cross
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that threshold? You know, what does that look like? Again, as we talked about earlier, that
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accident, that catastrophic health event, whatever that might be, typically past that you're
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entering into some kind of an out of body experience, you might have a very minimal
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amount of time to interact with the environment that you're in. Sometimes people, they just
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start rising out of their body instantaneously. Past that point, you're often going towards
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some kind of a bright light, you know, be it a portal or it's usually round, interestingly
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enough, some people will describe doors, but typically some kind of a bright light. Once
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they rise into that bright light, there's usually some kind of a threshold. Some people
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talk about they'll get in this space that looks like it's kind of between heaven and
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hell, like they'll look one direction and it's kind of stark and the grass is parched
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and there's usually a pit and smoke and other things and they look to the other side and
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it just looks more of a heavenly landscape. The grasses green things look a lot nicer.
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If it's not that kind of in between space, other people will talk about coming to a gate
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that's very typical where somebody will came to the gate of heaven or some kind of a gate.
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Often with that, people who aren't staying in heaven, they're going to go back. They're
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not allowed to go past that gate. Other people, even though they don't stay, they're taken
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on a tour of heaven. So they do get to go past the gate, how God works out, who gets
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the tour and who just goes home. I haven't quite been able to figure that out yet.
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We also look at people meeting different kind of supernatural beings, be it angels or encountering
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different members of the Trinity. Not as many encounters with the Holy Spirit in the near
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death experience stories, but very typical that somebody would either encounter Jesus
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or the Father. A lot of times what that encounter looks like is very much tied to how they need
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to experience God. So somebody who doesn't have a good relationship with their father,
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father issues, problems at home, they'll encounter God the Father and maybe like a child be sitting
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in God's lap, interestingly enough. And so just really filling that need. A lot of times
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the encounters with Jesus can, it's either one of two things. It seems like almost like
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a big brother kind of experience or just you are just pressed to the floor in Jesus's amazing,
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glorious presence. So yeah, we've got heavenly landscapes, you know, all kinds of different
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buildings and structures. Probably one of the ones that has had the biggest impact on
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people from some of the previous books we've done and some of the ministry events that
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we've done. There is this common thread of people who see some kind of a nursery in heaven.
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And it kind of varies what the structure looks like and what the kids are doing. But I know
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at least four or five near death experiences where they saw a nursery in heaven where all
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the lost and aborted children, kids who died before their time go. And so that's been a
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consistent theme. There's another testimony of a gentleman who talks about how not only
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did he see kind of that nursery or that place where these children go, he also saw parents
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arriving in heaven, getting to encounter their children in like the stages that they needed
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to see them because they didn't see them grow up. And so that that is consistent in a lot
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of testimonies. And I've even had the opportunity to see that shared from a stage at a ministry
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event and just talk to some of the different people in the audience after the fact is people
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were done praying with some of the speakers and such. And that testimony alone was life
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changing for people who'd lost children just to hear that and to pray through that. People
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see mansions in heaven, all when Matthew's as a gentleman, we talk about his story in
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the book, and he doesn't see his own personal mansion. He he's taken to the city that has
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what he called sort of mansions for like churches and ministries. And so you're seeing like the
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somehow structurally the impact of what his his ministry and his church had on earth thus
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far, almost like it was kind of it was very unique because a lot of times people will
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have a life review, which is another one of the stages where God will show them the different
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stages, different stages of their life and how he showed up and maybe even experience
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how they'd heard other people and go through those sorts of things. Alwin actually in in
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encountering this this mansion saw basically a life review for their church and their ministry
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and their effectiveness and where they kind of fell short. And that sort of a thing. So
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all that to say, there's a lot of variability. People meet a welcoming committee. Often,
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probably 80 to 90% of time, it's people you would know. So like your grandparents, a lost
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parent or sibling or friend. So as you kind of get to that crossing that gate entering
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into heaven, you'll see people that you know. Gosh, I think I'm remembering all about almost
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all these very impressed animals in heaven. It is another concept that comes up. Randy
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and I joke about it because I'm like, I don't think there's cats in heaven. But because
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people usually like horses have come up. People often talk about meeting their lost dogs in
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heaven. You know, people see lions and other animals in heaven. So that's another consistent
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theme. And then there's just the kind of what I call reentry, where, you know, you're, you're
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told you're going back or you start kind of reversing and heading back down the tunnel,
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if you will. Some of those are peaceful. Some of those are jarring. I think Heidi Barr talks
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about how when she was put back in her body, it was like her spirit didn't fit anymore.
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After being in heaven, and it felt kind of chaotic and reentering her body. And then
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past the reentry, I think the last stage is just the ongoing effects. You don't have
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a near death experience without being dramatically impacted. You know, some people have only
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hell experiences. Some people have both a hell experience and then a heaven experience.
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And so the impact varies. But on average, it takes somebody about seven years to wrestle
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with what they encountered. I often like to think of it as our physical minds can't deal
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with just the grandeur of everything that they, they encountered in heaven, but it takes about
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seven years to really come to terms and process. There's ongoing revelation. I have different
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authors I've worked with where they saw something in heaven 15 years ago. And for whatever reason,
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the Holy Spirit didn't reveal what it meant until a year ago or, or that sort of a thing.
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So yeah, I think, I think that's most of the stages. Thank you for that challenge. Someday
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I'll have that in my notes on the screen above here. But yeah, so again, it's just that framework.
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I feel like it gives people structure to talk about and process these stories. And again,
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something that I've felt is really lacking in our Christian space for these sorts of books.
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Yeah. And it gives so much hope. And I love the fact that you're looking at it all and
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you're then looking at the scriptures and you're trying to find the compatibility between the
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stories and the Word of God and have done so successfully. I love what you said. Because
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that was one of my questions to you as was, have you seen how profoundly it's impacted
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the people that you've interviewed? I mean, are their lives dramatically changed because
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of the experience? Do you find that's consistent? Yeah, absolutely. A lot of people end up in
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ministry. Yeah, that's interesting. Which if it was imagination, you wouldn't have that
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kind of transformed life, would you? So, right. Well, and I think the difficult thing is people
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don't realize the not the risk, but a lot of these experiences, these are sacred experiences
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with God and like it's one of their most precious things. So to share it publicly is almost
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painful because they feel a real heaviness and a weight of not wanting to taint the experience,
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not wanting to share it improperly, that sort of a thing. People go undergo dramatic personality
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shifts. Randy Kay, I've heard his testimony 50 plus times just because of all the work
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we've done together. He's actually in an earlier part of his career was a corporate trainer
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and they would do these four quadrant assessments about personality and varying things. And what's
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really fascinating about his journey is earlier, he did not rank as empathetic. Wherever that
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point, whatever quadrant that fill in, he was not an empathetic, super kind guy. And
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I can say Randy is one of the nicest, most kind men I've ever met in my entire life.
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He did that same evaluation on himself in the midst of doing some training at some point
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after his near death experience. And he actually ranked completely differently than he did
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before the experience. So he all of a sudden ranked in a quadrant that said he was empathetic
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and just very kind and personable. And so, not can't quite say it's scientific proof,
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but his personality shifted that dramatically. A lot of people, some of them were not believers
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before the experience and in the midst of the experience, they become believers or shortly
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thereafter. A lot of the folks who have near death experiences become very hardcore sold
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out evangelists where their primary concern is, do you know Jesus? There are people who
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wake up in the hospital from their near death experience and the nurse or whoever they encounter
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first, they'll be like, ma'am, I just need to ask you, have you encountered Jesus? Do
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you know Jesus as your Lord and Savior, that sort of thing? So just a real burden for the
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gospel. Now, that's not to say everybody has those experience. Some people who have more
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of a hell experience or disturbing NDE kind of experience, they will deal with some level
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of PTSD or it can be difficult. So not all of the experiences are always positive. I
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think a lot of that though can vary by the worldview of the person. And so not all NDE
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books are created equal. Like if you're reading books that are more of the Christian space,
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they're going to be more scripture honoring and maybe even gospel oriented. But if you
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read more broadly, you know, there's new age stuff and a lot of different perspectives.
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And this was something I didn't even realize falling into this space. You know, I just
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encountered Christian books in this space because I work in Christian publishing. And
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as we interviewed other people and I started reading more widely, I was amazed at kind
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of the some of the pitfalls and other materials that is that are in this space, you know,
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interesting to understand how people process and what they think about their experiences.
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But it's not everything in the spaces is God honoring or maybe even helpful to read. So
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there's a lot of different levels of material out there.
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Yeah. So I mean, your book is a very welcome and needed contribution, I think, because
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it's I mean, you've clearly done an enormous amount of research and you've waded through
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lots and lots and lots of different testimonies, you know, and you've been very clearly very
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careful to make sure that what you're communicating in the book is authentic. These are authentic
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stories that where their lives, like you say, have dramatically changed. I love as well
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how you say in the book that people describe when they go into heaven, it's a place of
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overwhelming love. Right.
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Yeah. That's really massively impacted people and they and how many of them meet Jesus as
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well.
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Yeah. What's fascinating about when people talk about love, they talk about that love
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and light are the two things that they see permeate everything in heaven. It's in the
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it's in the grass, it's in the trees, what it's it's in the water, what everything they
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encounter just permeates light. Even even the animals, Jim Woodford's in his story, horses
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have always been an important part of his life and he encounters horses in heaven and
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he reaches out and touches one of the horses and his hand kind of goes into it. And as
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he pulls his hand back, like there are aspects of light that are radiating out from the horse.
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So everything in heaven reflects the love and the glory of God to to a degree that people
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can't help but be transformed in the midst of that experience. And so yeah, that that
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is another consistent theme, the light and the love, even music and singing. I've had
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different people talk about how it's almost like the grass sings, the trees sing, everything
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they encounter. It's almost like they're singing praises to God. And so yeah, just everything
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praise, light, love, it's all there.
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Amazing. And your wife, she experienced this as well, didn't she? I was very moved that
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you included that in the book. Will you share with us what happened to your wife?
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Yeah, well, my wife, my wife's actually still with us. We're in the latter stages of her
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of her hospice journey. But what's been interesting, and I feel like this was a real divine setup.
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We didn't know my wife was going to be diagnosed with cancer 16 months ago. And yet I'd been
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on this journey for a couple of years, meeting and interviewing all these people who've been
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to heaven. And so we've had so many great productive conversations as we've just been
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grieving and processing and walking this journey out. And so I feel like on the one hand, God
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was preparing me to be able to minister to my wife as she's been going through her cancer
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journey. But actually she had two different experiences. And I don't share about these
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specifically in the book. I don't think I'd have to go back and check that part. But there
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was one night, I'm pretty sure that my wife had what I would call an out of body experience,
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just based on what she described, seeing in the room and almost like she was seeing me
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from above sort of a thing. And then another thing that happened is she had this open vision
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of meeting her welcoming committee in heaven. And this was probably about four or five months
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ago that she had this experience where she just had this very detailed open vision of
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encountering her, her father and her grandparents and her brother who are who have all all gone
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home to heaven previously. And so, you know, I would say just from being able to walk this
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journey out in hope and confidence and just being able to minister to her, having met
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all these people who've been to heaven and just really having a deep understanding at
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least of the process that people have gone through when they've died and cross that threshold.
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It's just been an amazing tool to, you know, just walk this out and just have great conversations
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and you know, we're grieving and it's difficult. But at the same time, because of this immersion
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in this heaven space, we just have this great hope. And this is what I hope long term is
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Randy and I do more books in our space because, you know, in a charismatic ministry space,
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we believe in healing, we pray for healing, we've seen people healed, but sometimes people
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don't get healed and sometimes it's time for them to go home to heaven. And so, long term,
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as we do more content in this space, we just really hope that these sorts of testimonies
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and these sorts of conversations can just help us to have more of a comfort and maybe
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build a theology around just a solid worldview around dying in heaven and the afterlife.
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And you know, yes, I think we should always go after healing and pray and we're going
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to see that sometimes. But when we don't, we need to just embrace that hope of heaven
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and know that it's a real place and our Savior is waiting for us to take us home. So just
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this immersion in this space has just been a real blessing to our family in these last
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16 months.
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Absolutely. And to countless numbers of people who are going to read the book and also the
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books that you've already put out there in your podcast, they're amazing because people
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do need to know, they really do need hope, hey, that there is, this is one chapter of
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life that goes on and he really is real. You know, I was, I was just remembering when you
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were speaking then, it when my mom passed into glory, I of course was in tremendous grief
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because she died suddenly. And the six days after she went home to be with the Lord, I
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went into an open vision. I was worshiping in the car, went into an open vision and I
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saw the moment that she went into heaven and I saw her in the meadow. And then I saw my
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grandpa walking to meet her as part of the welcoming committee. Now, in my understanding
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at that time, I wouldn't have scripted it that way. I would have had other members of
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the family meeting her, you know, for various reasons. But anyway, but it wasn't and I watched
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this beautiful moment and I heard through Holy Spirit inside me, I heard my mom speak
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and she said, I'm young and I'm free, live your life to the full. And then all the, as
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I saw this, Holy Spirit lifted all the grief off me. And I literally went into just such
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gratitude and joy that she was there and she was happy and she was free and she wasn't
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sick anymore, you know. And then a few days later, I received a card from a friend of
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mine who'd been in New York airport and had heard my mom had passed and she wrote me just
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an encouraging card to say she was praying for me. And in the card, it said, Liz, your
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mom is in the meadow in heaven. She's young and she's free, live your life to the full.
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So just what a treasure. It's all real, hey.
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One comment, just to piggyback off the comment of her being young, that's another interesting
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aspect in terms of seeing other people and encountering other people in heaven. People
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seem to be the age of about 25 to 30. I don't know why that is, but that's another consistent
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theme where the loved ones they encounter, the people they encounter that have already
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gone to heaven before them, they look to be about what they look like in permaise 25 to
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30.
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Yeah, mom, I said the same thing. Mom looked about 30. She was just gorgeous, like living
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her best life literally. But oh my gosh, it's brilliant talking to you. I'm so excited that
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this book's out and it's just, yeah, it's going to get all across the nations of the
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earth. I have no doubt because it's time for this kind of hope. Thank you for coming on
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and sharing all this amazing research. It's really good to talk to you.
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Truly my pleasure. Randy's in my heart is that this book just goes around the world
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and it gives people a framework to process their own near-death experience if they have
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one. And if they are passionate about sharing these stories, that it really just gives them
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a structure to be able to effectively communicate these stories to others. Because as you said,
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these stories give people a lot of hope for what's going to happen when they cross over
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into the afterlife. And that's an appointment all of us have at some point in the future.
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Yeah, absolutely. And I do believe that it is intentional on the Lord's part. He's sending
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these people back with powerful testimony that gives us a glimpse, hey, of what's ahead.
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So thank you so much. And guys, thank you for joining us for today. It's a bit different,
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but extremely powerful conversation. Have the most amazing week so full of renewed hope
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and faith and every need met through his riches in glory. He's a very big God, hey, have an
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amazing, amazing week and look forward to being with you again next week. God bless.
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As we consecrate ourselves, giving all that we are to Jesus, we will experience his love.
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We will experience freedom. The more we lean into him, the more we surrender, the more
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power comes through us. God's going to encounter you.
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I am Liz Wright. Welcome to Live Your Best Life. The only thing that matters now is living
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by the power of this wonderful new creation life. We're going to become an undefeatable
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force of radiating glory and we are rising up strong now in this hour.
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Hi family, thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of Live Your Best Life with
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Milla's Wright and I honestly am so excited. I've been so looking forward to today's conversation.
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My special guest joining me is the publishing executive or in a publishing executive at
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Destiny Image Publishing. He's also the host I should say. I'm jumping ahead on myself
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there. He's the host of Sean Tabbitt Show. He's also co-author now of literally one
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of the most outstanding books I think I've ever read. It's called Near Death Experiences,
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101 stories that help us understand heaven, hell and the afterlife. And honestly, I could
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not put the book down. It's so interesting. The content in there is so faith enhancing
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and just compelling. Anyway, you're going to hear more from my special guest joining
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me today who is the co-author of the book. As I said, Sean Tabbitt, Sean, welcome.
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Well, Liz, thank you so much for inviting me to your podcast and for all of your kind
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words about the book. This is a book that was birthed out of an interesting and difficult
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time in my life. And so it's just, it's been fun to get reports of how it's touched people
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and just how it's been impacting people. So I always appreciate any level of feedback.
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So thank you for that kindness. I just love it. I mean, it's clearly, it's
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obvious to me that in writing it, you, you seriously do have a mission. Like you really
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do want to bring comfort and through uncertainty through trying to help us gain an understanding
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of what happens when we leave this earth, right? And that was the thing that came across
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to me as I was reading it. It was just hope, hope, hope. There's a ton of evidence out
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there now, guys. Hope, hope. And the stories that you share is like, oh my gosh, I have
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to talk to this man. So tell me just in beginning, just how did you end up working on the research
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and putting that book together? Because it's such a brilliant and fascinating subject.
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I thought everyone has a journey, don't they? So what was a bit of your journey? How did
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you end up writing it? Yeah, I kind of haphazardly fell into the near death experiences space.
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The first two books I read were John Burke's book, Imagine Heaven, which almost everybody
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in our circles have, they've read that one. And then I had worked with Randy on his book,
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Dynamite Jesus. And as Providence would have it, we did a podcast interview about that
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book about three and a half years ago, and it went viral. And then we just started doing
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content of him and me interviewing other people who'd had these near death experiences.
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And that was really in the midst of the turmoil with the lockdowns and church closures and
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COVID and everything crazy that was going on. And all of a sudden, we sort of fell into
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this space where we started getting testimonies of people saying, I watched your interview
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with so and so, and I've been distant from the Lord and I've rededicated my life, or
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I watched this interview with that person. And I got healed during, we're just watching
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the interview. And so we just started getting hundreds and hundreds of testimonies through
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Randy's ministry of, you know, people just watching an interview and their lives being
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transformed. Now, I've been interviewing people for 10 years, Randy's done tons of content
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through the years as an author. And we'd never been in this space where we saw the Holy Spirit
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drop on something so significantly. And it wasn't anything, we were just using the skill
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sets we've used for years. And so that's really how we fell into this space of putting out
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these books about the near death experiences because of what we saw God doing in the midst
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of our YouTube videos and our podcasts. Yeah, so you could see that it was really,
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really needed information. It was the right time, wasn't it, for this message to come
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out. And it impacted me as well, how you were sharing how there are many, many thousands
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more people that have actually had these experiences then have been willing to previously share,
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you know, for perhaps fear of being seen as a religious extremist or whatever, whatever,
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you know, do you mean the negative potential negative impact of people coming and sharing
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these stories. But now so many people are, it's like God's up to something big, you
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know, and it's really restoring hope. Okay, I want to dive into some of the research,
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some of your findings, which is just fantastic content. So questions that I can ask you that
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I know people you guys out there would probably want to ask as well. So number one, what happens
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in your experience having interviewed hundreds of people, probably more than hundreds of
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people, but certainly for the book, you've got 101 selected testimonies from people you've
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interviewed. What have you found that has that happens at the point we die at the point
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we leave our bodies?
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That would tip in terms of the verbiage or the language that we would use. And that that
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I'll just go in a little bit of a side trail hormone. That's one of the things we really
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hope to do with this book is give people vocabulary around how to effectively discuss the afterlife
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and also give them a framework because that's that's really lacked in near death experience
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books in the Christian space. But typically when somebody is entering into a near death
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experience, they've had some kind of a catastrophic accident or some kind of a health event, an
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emergency of sorts, and they enter into what we would typically refer to as an out of body
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experience where their spirit is leaving their body. What that feels like for different
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people, some people will say that they feel like their spirits being pulled out of their
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body. I think when Randy shares his story, he talks about how it felt like his spirit
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like left his stomach of all things. Other people will describe they all of a sudden
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are kind of confused. They don't even realize they're out of their body. Jim Woodford's
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account where he is, he drives out to check on a field that he was about to sell on his
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property and he dies in his truck and he he all of a sudden is like, man, I haven't felt
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this good in years. Oh my gosh, like I've been so sick for so many years and he walks
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out into his field and is looking around and he turns around and he he sees a guy sitting
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in his truck and he's like, what the heck? Why? Why is there he's like, he's getting
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angry. He's like, there's a man sitting in my truck and so he starts moving back in that
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direction. And suddenly he realized it's him sitting in his truck and he's dead. And so
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you know, people often have this temporary timeframe where they actually are inner kind
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of interacting with their day to day environment where they'll try to turn on the light switch
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or touch a wall or what have you and their hands go through things. So it's often a period
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of initial disorientation as they enter into that out of body experience. And usually that
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proceeds with a floating upwards heading towards a light that sort of a thing. But that initial
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out of body experience varies from person to person. But a lot of times has a few of
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those consistent markers of the disorientation and a little bit of time to interact with
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the environment.
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Gosh, it's fascinating, isn't it? And then the other thing that I thought was just incredible
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was how you've been able through the research to identify nine specific things that seem
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to be consistent across everybody's testimonies, even though everybody's testimony is unique
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and specific and profound for them, because each person clearly has come back having had
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this experience. But there are nine consistent pieces that happen in the story to everybody.
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Can you go there? Can you share with us what you found? Because I was reading this going,
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whoa, my God.
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I don't think I have a list of nine in my notes in front of me. But let me talk through
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that too. Like again, that's one of the things that just it hasn't existed in the Christian
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space for these sorts of books. A lot of times we'll share people's testimonies and their
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stories. But we don't have a framework, which I feel like empowers people to talk about
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these, to tell a story. The framework also really helps people who've had these sorts
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of experiences process them on the more mainstream secular side of this publishing space. There's
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a lot of different frameworks. And so in the research, we looked at a bunch of different
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frameworks and just tried to break them down into something a little more concise. We'll
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see how many of them I can remember off the top of my head. But it effectively is going
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through each of the steps. So we started out talking about like, how does somebody cross
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that threshold? You know, what does that look like? Again, as we talked about earlier, that
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accident, that catastrophic health event, whatever that might be, typically past that you're
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entering into some kind of an out of body experience, you might have a very minimal
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amount of time to interact with the environment that you're in. Sometimes people, they just
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start rising out of their body instantaneously. Past that point, you're often going towards
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some kind of a bright light, you know, be it a portal or it's usually round, interestingly
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enough, some people will describe doors, but typically some kind of a bright light. Once
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they rise into that bright light, there's usually some kind of a threshold. Some people
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talk about they'll get in this space that looks like it's kind of between heaven and
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hell, like they'll look one direction and it's kind of stark and the grass is parched
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and there's usually a pit and smoke and other things and they look to the other side and
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it just looks more of a heavenly landscape. The grasses green things look a lot nicer.
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If it's not that kind of in between space, other people will talk about coming to a gate
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that's very typical where somebody will came to the gate of heaven or some kind of a gate.
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Often with that, people who aren't staying in heaven, they're going to go back. They're
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not allowed to go past that gate. Other people, even though they don't stay, they're taken
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on a tour of heaven. So they do get to go past the gate, how God works out, who gets
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the tour and who just goes home. I haven't quite been able to figure that out yet.
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We also look at people meeting different kind of supernatural beings, be it angels or encountering
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different members of the Trinity. Not as many encounters with the Holy Spirit in the near
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death experience stories, but very typical that somebody would either encounter Jesus
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or the Father. A lot of times what that encounter looks like is very much tied to how they need
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to experience God. So somebody who doesn't have a good relationship with their father,
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father issues, problems at home, they'll encounter God the Father and maybe like a child be sitting
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in God's lap, interestingly enough. And so just really filling that need. A lot of times
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the encounters with Jesus can, it's either one of two things. It seems like almost like
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a big brother kind of experience or just you are just pressed to the floor in Jesus's amazing,
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glorious presence. So yeah, we've got heavenly landscapes, you know, all kinds of different
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buildings and structures. Probably one of the ones that has had the biggest impact on
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people from some of the previous books we've done and some of the ministry events that
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we've done. There is this common thread of people who see some kind of a nursery in heaven.
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And it kind of varies what the structure looks like and what the kids are doing. But I know
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at least four or five near death experiences where they saw a nursery in heaven where all
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the lost and aborted children, kids who died before their time go. And so that's been a
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consistent theme. There's another testimony of a gentleman who talks about how not only
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did he see kind of that nursery or that place where these children go, he also saw parents
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arriving in heaven, getting to encounter their children in like the stages that they needed
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to see them because they didn't see them grow up. And so that that is consistent in a lot
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of testimonies. And I've even had the opportunity to see that shared from a stage at a ministry
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event and just talk to some of the different people in the audience after the fact is people
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were done praying with some of the speakers and such. And that testimony alone was life
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changing for people who'd lost children just to hear that and to pray through that. People
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see mansions in heaven, all when Matthew's as a gentleman, we talk about his story in
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the book, and he doesn't see his own personal mansion. He he's taken to the city that has
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what he called sort of mansions for like churches and ministries. And so you're seeing like the
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somehow structurally the impact of what his his ministry and his church had on earth thus
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far, almost like it was kind of it was very unique because a lot of times people will
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have a life review, which is another one of the stages where God will show them the different
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stages, different stages of their life and how he showed up and maybe even experience
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how they'd heard other people and go through those sorts of things. Alwin actually in in
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encountering this this mansion saw basically a life review for their church and their ministry
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and their effectiveness and where they kind of fell short. And that sort of a thing. So
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all that to say, there's a lot of variability. People meet a welcoming committee. Often,
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probably 80 to 90% of time, it's people you would know. So like your grandparents, a lost
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parent or sibling or friend. So as you kind of get to that crossing that gate entering
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into heaven, you'll see people that you know. Gosh, I think I'm remembering all about almost
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all these very impressed animals in heaven. It is another concept that comes up. Randy
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and I joke about it because I'm like, I don't think there's cats in heaven. But because
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people usually like horses have come up. People often talk about meeting their lost dogs in
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heaven. You know, people see lions and other animals in heaven. So that's another consistent
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theme. And then there's just the kind of what I call reentry, where, you know, you're, you're
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told you're going back or you start kind of reversing and heading back down the tunnel,
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if you will. Some of those are peaceful. Some of those are jarring. I think Heidi Barr talks
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about how when she was put back in her body, it was like her spirit didn't fit anymore.
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After being in heaven, and it felt kind of chaotic and reentering her body. And then
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past the reentry, I think the last stage is just the ongoing effects. You don't have
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a near death experience without being dramatically impacted. You know, some people have only
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hell experiences. Some people have both a hell experience and then a heaven experience.
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And so the impact varies. But on average, it takes somebody about seven years to wrestle
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with what they encountered. I often like to think of it as our physical minds can't deal
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with just the grandeur of everything that they, they encountered in heaven, but it takes about
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seven years to really come to terms and process. There's ongoing revelation. I have different
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authors I've worked with where they saw something in heaven 15 years ago. And for whatever reason,
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the Holy Spirit didn't reveal what it meant until a year ago or, or that sort of a thing.
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So yeah, I think, I think that's most of the stages. Thank you for that challenge. Someday
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I'll have that in my notes on the screen above here. But yeah, so again, it's just that framework.
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I feel like it gives people structure to talk about and process these stories. And again,
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something that I've felt is really lacking in our Christian space for these sorts of books.
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Yeah. And it gives so much hope. And I love the fact that you're looking at it all and
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you're then looking at the scriptures and you're trying to find the compatibility between the
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stories and the Word of God and have done so successfully. I love what you said. Because
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that was one of my questions to you as was, have you seen how profoundly it's impacted
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the people that you've interviewed? I mean, are their lives dramatically changed because
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of the experience? Do you find that's consistent? Yeah, absolutely. A lot of people end up in
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ministry. Yeah, that's interesting. Which if it was imagination, you wouldn't have that
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kind of transformed life, would you? So, right. Well, and I think the difficult thing is people
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don't realize the not the risk, but a lot of these experiences, these are sacred experiences
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with God and like it's one of their most precious things. So to share it publicly is almost
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painful because they feel a real heaviness and a weight of not wanting to taint the experience,
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not wanting to share it improperly, that sort of a thing. People go undergo dramatic personality
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shifts. Randy Kay, I've heard his testimony 50 plus times just because of all the work
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we've done together. He's actually in an earlier part of his career was a corporate trainer
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and they would do these four quadrant assessments about personality and varying things. And what's
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really fascinating about his journey is earlier, he did not rank as empathetic. Wherever that
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point, whatever quadrant that fill in, he was not an empathetic, super kind guy. And
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I can say Randy is one of the nicest, most kind men I've ever met in my entire life.
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He did that same evaluation on himself in the midst of doing some training at some point
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after his near death experience. And he actually ranked completely differently than he did
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before the experience. So he all of a sudden ranked in a quadrant that said he was empathetic
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and just very kind and personable. And so, not can't quite say it's scientific proof,
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but his personality shifted that dramatically. A lot of people, some of them were not believers
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before the experience and in the midst of the experience, they become believers or shortly
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thereafter. A lot of the folks who have near death experiences become very hardcore sold
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out evangelists where their primary concern is, do you know Jesus? There are people who
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wake up in the hospital from their near death experience and the nurse or whoever they encounter
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first, they'll be like, ma'am, I just need to ask you, have you encountered Jesus? Do
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you know Jesus as your Lord and Savior, that sort of thing? So just a real burden for the
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gospel. Now, that's not to say everybody has those experience. Some people who have more
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of a hell experience or disturbing NDE kind of experience, they will deal with some level
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of PTSD or it can be difficult. So not all of the experiences are always positive. I
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think a lot of that though can vary by the worldview of the person. And so not all NDE
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books are created equal. Like if you're reading books that are more of the Christian space,
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they're going to be more scripture honoring and maybe even gospel oriented. But if you
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read more broadly, you know, there's new age stuff and a lot of different perspectives.
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And this was something I didn't even realize falling into this space. You know, I just
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encountered Christian books in this space because I work in Christian publishing. And
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as we interviewed other people and I started reading more widely, I was amazed at kind
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of the some of the pitfalls and other materials that is that are in this space, you know,
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interesting to understand how people process and what they think about their experiences.
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But it's not everything in the spaces is God honoring or maybe even helpful to read. So
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there's a lot of different levels of material out there.
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Yeah. So I mean, your book is a very welcome and needed contribution, I think, because
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it's I mean, you've clearly done an enormous amount of research and you've waded through
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lots and lots and lots of different testimonies, you know, and you've been very clearly very
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careful to make sure that what you're communicating in the book is authentic. These are authentic
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stories that where their lives, like you say, have dramatically changed. I love as well
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how you say in the book that people describe when they go into heaven, it's a place of
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overwhelming love. Right.
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Yeah. That's really massively impacted people and they and how many of them meet Jesus as
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well.
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Yeah. What's fascinating about when people talk about love, they talk about that love
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and light are the two things that they see permeate everything in heaven. It's in the
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it's in the grass, it's in the trees, what it's it's in the water, what everything they
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encounter just permeates light. Even even the animals, Jim Woodford's in his story, horses
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have always been an important part of his life and he encounters horses in heaven and
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he reaches out and touches one of the horses and his hand kind of goes into it. And as
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he pulls his hand back, like there are aspects of light that are radiating out from the horse.
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So everything in heaven reflects the love and the glory of God to to a degree that people
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can't help but be transformed in the midst of that experience. And so yeah, that that
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is another consistent theme, the light and the love, even music and singing. I've had
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different people talk about how it's almost like the grass sings, the trees sing, everything
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they encounter. It's almost like they're singing praises to God. And so yeah, just everything
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praise, light, love, it's all there.
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Amazing. And your wife, she experienced this as well, didn't she? I was very moved that
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you included that in the book. Will you share with us what happened to your wife?
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Yeah, well, my wife, my wife's actually still with us. We're in the latter stages of her
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of her hospice journey. But what's been interesting, and I feel like this was a real divine setup.
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We didn't know my wife was going to be diagnosed with cancer 16 months ago. And yet I'd been
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on this journey for a couple of years, meeting and interviewing all these people who've been
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to heaven. And so we've had so many great productive conversations as we've just been
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grieving and processing and walking this journey out. And so I feel like on the one hand, God
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was preparing me to be able to minister to my wife as she's been going through her cancer
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journey. But actually she had two different experiences. And I don't share about these
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specifically in the book. I don't think I'd have to go back and check that part. But there
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was one night, I'm pretty sure that my wife had what I would call an out of body experience,
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just based on what she described, seeing in the room and almost like she was seeing me
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from above sort of a thing. And then another thing that happened is she had this open vision
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of meeting her welcoming committee in heaven. And this was probably about four or five months
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ago that she had this experience where she just had this very detailed open vision of
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encountering her, her father and her grandparents and her brother who are who have all all gone
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home to heaven previously. And so, you know, I would say just from being able to walk this
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journey out in hope and confidence and just being able to minister to her, having met
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all these people who've been to heaven and just really having a deep understanding at
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least of the process that people have gone through when they've died and cross that threshold.
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It's just been an amazing tool to, you know, just walk this out and just have great conversations
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and you know, we're grieving and it's difficult. But at the same time, because of this immersion
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in this heaven space, we just have this great hope. And this is what I hope long term is
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Randy and I do more books in our space because, you know, in a charismatic ministry space,
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we believe in healing, we pray for healing, we've seen people healed, but sometimes people
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don't get healed and sometimes it's time for them to go home to heaven. And so, long term,
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as we do more content in this space, we just really hope that these sorts of testimonies
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and these sorts of conversations can just help us to have more of a comfort and maybe
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build a theology around just a solid worldview around dying in heaven and the afterlife.
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And you know, yes, I think we should always go after healing and pray and we're going
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to see that sometimes. But when we don't, we need to just embrace that hope of heaven
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and know that it's a real place and our Savior is waiting for us to take us home. So just
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this immersion in this space has just been a real blessing to our family in these last
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16 months.
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Absolutely. And to countless numbers of people who are going to read the book and also the
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books that you've already put out there in your podcast, they're amazing because people
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do need to know, they really do need hope, hey, that there is, this is one chapter of
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life that goes on and he really is real. You know, I was, I was just remembering when you
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were speaking then, it when my mom passed into glory, I of course was in tremendous grief
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because she died suddenly. And the six days after she went home to be with the Lord, I
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went into an open vision. I was worshiping in the car, went into an open vision and I
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saw the moment that she went into heaven and I saw her in the meadow. And then I saw my
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grandpa walking to meet her as part of the welcoming committee. Now, in my understanding
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at that time, I wouldn't have scripted it that way. I would have had other members of
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the family meeting her, you know, for various reasons. But anyway, but it wasn't and I watched
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this beautiful moment and I heard through Holy Spirit inside me, I heard my mom speak
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and she said, I'm young and I'm free, live your life to the full. And then all the, as
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I saw this, Holy Spirit lifted all the grief off me. And I literally went into just such
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gratitude and joy that she was there and she was happy and she was free and she wasn't
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sick anymore, you know. And then a few days later, I received a card from a friend of
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mine who'd been in New York airport and had heard my mom had passed and she wrote me just
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an encouraging card to say she was praying for me. And in the card, it said, Liz, your
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mom is in the meadow in heaven. She's young and she's free, live your life to the full.
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So just what a treasure. It's all real, hey.
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One comment, just to piggyback off the comment of her being young, that's another interesting
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aspect in terms of seeing other people and encountering other people in heaven. People
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seem to be the age of about 25 to 30. I don't know why that is, but that's another consistent
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theme where the loved ones they encounter, the people they encounter that have already
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gone to heaven before them, they look to be about what they look like in permaise 25 to
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30.
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Yeah, mom, I said the same thing. Mom looked about 30. She was just gorgeous, like living
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her best life literally. But oh my gosh, it's brilliant talking to you. I'm so excited that
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this book's out and it's just, yeah, it's going to get all across the nations of the
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earth. I have no doubt because it's time for this kind of hope. Thank you for coming on
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and sharing all this amazing research. It's really good to talk to you.
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Truly my pleasure. Randy's in my heart is that this book just goes around the world
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and it gives people a framework to process their own near-death experience if they have
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one. And if they are passionate about sharing these stories, that it really just gives them
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a structure to be able to effectively communicate these stories to others. Because as you said,
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these stories give people a lot of hope for what's going to happen when they cross over
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into the afterlife. And that's an appointment all of us have at some point in the future.
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Yeah, absolutely. And I do believe that it is intentional on the Lord's part. He's sending
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these people back with powerful testimony that gives us a glimpse, hey, of what's ahead.
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So thank you so much. And guys, thank you for joining us for today. It's a bit different,
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but extremely powerful conversation. Have the most amazing week so full of renewed hope
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and faith and every need met through his riches in glory. He's a very big God, hey, have an
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amazing, amazing week and look forward to being with you again next week. God bless.
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As we consecrate ourselves, giving all that we are to Jesus, we will experience his love.
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We will experience freedom. The more we lean into him, the more we surrender, the more
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power comes through us. God's going to encounter you.
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