Crossing the Jordan with Dr. Chris McKinny (Going Deeper Series)

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Welcome to Out of Zion with Susan Michael, an exploration of the Bible and the land of

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Israel.

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From ancient biblical sites to the story behind the stories, join Susan on a journey through

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the most exciting book on the planet.

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Hit the subscribe button for future episodes, which will deepen your faith and bring the

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Bible to life.

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And now here's our host, Susan Michael.

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Well, hey there and welcome to our Going Deeper episode this week.

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We are so excited to have with us today Dr. Chris McKinney, who is an archaeologist and

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an expert in the realm of the Israelites.

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Exit from Egypt, they're wandering in the desert, the Tabernacle.

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We're going to talk about a lot of these really interesting things that we've been reading

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about in our walk through the Bible.

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So welcome and let's get started.

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So Dr. Chris McKinney, I'm going to address you as Chris, but I want to emphasize your

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amazing background.

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You have a PhD from Bar-Lan University and you have a master's degree from Bar-Lan and

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another master's from the Jerusalem University College, where I also attended, although many

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years earlier than you did.

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And I know you're an adjunct faculty member of several universities and I appreciate you're

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also an ordained minister and involved in church leadership.

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And I have here your 16 page CV of all your archaeological experience and all the papers

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and scholarly works that you've written and co-edited and it's just so impressive and

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we are so appreciative of you giving up your time today to be with us.

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So a warm welcome to you.

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Thank you very much, Susan.

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And it's my pleasure to be on the podcast and to offer any insight to what I consider

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just to be a fascinating section of the Bible.

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You know, this year, you could say that last year, within the last 12 months, I celebrated

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40 years since I landed in Israel to start my studies and the organization that I've

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spent my lifetime with, the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem, celebrated their 40th

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anniversary.

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So 40 is a really important year to all of us right now and yet we see that the Israelites

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wandered in the wilderness 40 years and I think you've got some special insight there

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as well.

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So please share with us a significance of 40.

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It's really no coincidence that the story in Genesis has a river and a tree of life

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and we have that showing up in the Tabernacle, we have it showing up in the Temple, we have

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it showing up in prophecies such as Ezekiel, you know, the river that goes through and

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of course it ends with that where we have in the book of Revelation where we have the

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tree of life and the river once more and so it's just, and that's again, that kind of

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leads me into what I'd like to talk about next is just how this is a compelling, rich

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story with a beginning and an end and all kinds of beautiful literary conflicts and

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resolutions and heroes but thankfully we know the beginning and the end of the story and

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we can have confidence in the end of the story and one of the real interesting aspects that

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I think is so fascinating about the biblical story and this timeframe has to do with what

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you just alluded to and this idea of the 40 and so maybe I'll kind of pick up the story

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and end with what happens to the Israelites and then we'll talk about a little bit about

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the Jordan River because that is really this nexus of that 40 thinking as well as the typology

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that we have between a number of Israel's prophets, let's say and so after the 40 years

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that Israel spends in the wilderness, of course it starts with them rejecting the bad report

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or following the bad report I should say of the spies, the two give, Joshua and Caleb

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give the good report, the ten don't which I always like to say well when Joshua sent

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spies to Jericho he only sent two, you know he only need two, you don't need 12 anymore

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so after that God curses them and says that this generation will spend 40 years and they

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spend 40 years wandering, most of that wandering likely took place between Kedash Barnea and

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the area of the modern Gulf of Aqaba we sometimes call the Red Sea and at the end it even has

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about at the very end of this on the 40th year we have this situation where we have

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boom boom boom death of Miriam at Kedash Barnea right after that death of Aaron on Mount

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Whore which I think is at probably near Maktesh Ramon which is this beautiful vista and then

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they head north and this is where they enter into Jordan after they defeat the various

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enemies Sihon and Og and Moses is kind of giving a second version of the law we call

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the book of Deuteronomy, the book of Deuteronomy ends with Moses on another mountain in this

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case Mount Nebo overlooking the Jordan River and his he's still vigorous and his eye is

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still working and he dies because of his disobedience and so we have the end of this whole process

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with these three leading figures dying after these 40 years and of course they go to the

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Jordan we have the passing of the the control from Moses to Joshua he's now the new leader

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and we find him having the people take up the tabernacle take up the Ark of the Covenant

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the waters the priest carry the Ark of the Covenant into the Jordan the Jordan is cut

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off probably towards the center of the Jordan River at a place called Adam which is actually

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the same place likely that Jacob came in when he came into the land of Canaan and they cross

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over on on dry land and they do a lot of other things but one of the first things that's

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that I would I would like to point out is that what we have with Joshua once he's now

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the leader we have a very important bookend sometimes people call it inclusios you know

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the end of the the envelope of the bookend of the entire Exodus event because not only

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do we have the Exodus event beginning and ending with a with a a crossing of the waters

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that is divine you know from from God himself given you know to cross over with with the

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Red Sea and of course the Jordan River but we actually have another bookend because what's

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the first thing that happens to Joshua when he crosses over and they've encamped tabernacle

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is set up well we have him encountering this mysterious figure this commander of the Lord's

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hosts and he seems to be more than just simply a an angel because he says take off the sandals

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because the ground you are standing on is holy ground well anyone who's paying close

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attention to the story and not just reading these as you know trying to find devotional

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value out of every verse they can point back to the beginning of Exodus where we learned

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that Moses was wandering around the desert in the area of Mount Sinai and encountered

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a burning bush that would not burn and he's told from God out of the bush to take off

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your sandals because the ground you're standing on is holy ground and so what we see then is

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just a connection between these stories it's all part of this cohesive story now what is

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even more interesting is that how this story in a particular the Exodus is going to play

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a role all throughout Israel's history because what we see then is Moses dying the lead prophet

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dying on Mount Nebo his body being taken away perhaps mysteriously it's kind of hinted at

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in the book of Jude and the passing of the mantle to Joshua but then if we fast forward

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a couple hundred years we're going to encounter another set of two leaders or two prophets

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from Israel their names Elijah and Elisha and they're going to come to precisely the

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same location the Jordan River and it's going to be there where Elijah is going to tell

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Elisha you know go away you don't have to stay with me I'm going to be taken up and

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Elisha says I'm going to stay with you and so Elijah those of you remember in the story

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takes off his mantle touches the water and it and it parts they cross over on dry land

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and as they're talking Elisha says he says to you know if if you know Elijah actually

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asks them if if well what can I do for you as I'm about to be taken up and Elisha says

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if you will ask that I will have a double portion of your spirit and Elijah says well

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if that's a hard thing but if it's going to happen you'll see me as I go and of course

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as they're talking he is taken up in the whirlwind precisely in the same location where Moses

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his body is taken and actually later the sons of the prophets say well maybe he was thrown

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on some mountain why are they saying that they're connecting it with Mount Nebo but

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then Elisha of course takes up the mantle that's where we get the term you know take

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up the mantle and then he crosses over the Jordan once more and over the course of his

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ministry he is going to he's going to do according to the book of kings twice the amount of signs

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that Elijah does well if we fast forward to a third one and maybe you can see where I'm

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going with this we go to the same location Jordan River and here we have a guy with another

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mantle he's a prophet he likes to eat locusts and honey and he's calling people to repent

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and be baptized in the Jordan River his name of course is John when he comes to the river

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his cousin Jesus of course comes to him and one of the things that according to the different

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versions and it's in all four gospels but according to Matthew which I think is the most

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clear John says I'm not worthy to untie your sandal now he's saying that course because

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it's true he knows that he's greater but he could be alluding to well it was in this

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area where someone had to take off their sandals Joshua when he encountered this holy one and

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so there could be that connection also that we have there and then we also have this interaction

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in the very place in the very waters he is going to be baptized Jesus by John and he

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says let it be so now this is again Matthew's version to fulfill all righteousness what does

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he mean by that to fulfill all righteousness I think there's a lot of different answers

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you could give one of the clearest ones is the typology of everything that's around them

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Moses on Mount Nimo directly above them Joshua receiving the spirit in the case of the Ark

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of the Covenant Elijah and Elisha Elijah being taken up and so all of that again if you're

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standing there would have been well known to the to everyone who was there because they

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who knew their Bible who knew these stories and so as Jesus goes down in the water what

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does he see he sees the spirit of God descending upon him like a dove so just in the same place

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we have these symbols the symbol of the dove which of course could also be connected with

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things like Noah which is also a story about water salvation but it has the symbol of the

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spirit with the dove the Ark of the Covenant in the case of Joshua which is where God's

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spirit was resting as well as the mantle of Elijah and that gets passed to Elisha because

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in that context they are considered to be the true chariot of Israel the spirit of God

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in all three places and so you can see these these deep intertextual connections that are

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just right there for us to see if we know our Old Testament our Hebrew Bible and we're

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seeing it reading it through that lens and when I see those kind of things I just say

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who can make this stuff up like if we talk about you know I mean I like to like to make

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the point it took Tolkien his entire life to make a totally fabricated fascinating set

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of fantasy stories that until today it's considered to be the best literature of the last hundred

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years and then it took his son Christopher Tolkien who just passed away another whole

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lifetime thankfully lived into his mid 90s before he passed away to produce everything

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else that Tolkien never his father never finished and it's fabricated by two guys here we have

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a story that is written by dozens if not more men perhaps women over this time period that

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is crafted and put together by God for these apex moments of just unbelievable courage

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her heroism and just glory where you have these things and all illustrating you know

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that this person who is here among you is greater than Moses he's greater than Joshua

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he's greater than Elijah he's greater than Elisha and then you could go on in the story

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and and point out how you know Jesus does much of the same thing Elisha does he he raises

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a child from the dead on the same mountain that Elisha does he heals lepers one that's

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a foreigner just like name and we can go on and on but those connections are so important

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which really gets me excited is not just that the biblical writers are bringing this out

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I think it's fairly clear that at least in my opinion that Jesus himself is aware of

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these and he is seeking to not only know these stories and point to these stories but to

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surpass them in his ability to go and fulfill them and so that's me what it means to fulfill

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all righteousness now all of that's kind of set up for what your question was which was

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the 40 because what happens is as soon as Jesus comes out of the water it says that

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the spirit which he now I'm not saying he didn't have before but he has it and let's

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say a particular special way at this point he's driven into the wilderness which is most

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likely the Judean wilderness the same wilderness that anyone who visits Israel and goes to

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the Dead Sea has seen he goes up into the wilderness and he spends 40 days and nights

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without water and he's tempted by the devil now throughout that process as he's tempted

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and given these different temptations he quotes Deuteronomy and the Psalms back to the devil

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Deuteronomy of course was written right there and it was written with this idea of covenant

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faithfulness and sort of at the heart of Deuteronomy is the Shema you know love the Lord your God

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with all your heart soul and mind which by the way Jesus would say is the greatest commandment

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and he's doing all of this again 40 days and nights without water because he is people

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always say well how could you have done that well it's clear he has the spirit and just

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in the same way he could do it so could Moses because Moses did the same thing on Mount

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Sinai when he goes up and he's feeding on the presence of God he's sustained by the

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presence of God without food or water when he's up on Mount Sinai now before we move

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on with this one of the things I'm so fascinated by about that story the last temptation at

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least in Matthew's version is it says that Jesus is taken up to a high mountain by Satan

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and he says Satan tends to him and says you know bow down to me and I will give you all

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the kingdoms of the earth and of course he resists and he says you know he quotes scripture

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back at him and is all kinds of things we go to you know in understanding that but that's

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also really similar to what happened with Moses Moses's last view of the land is from

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Mount Nebo the highest mountain around and he sees this whole vista of the land of Canaan

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that he's not going to be able to go in and dwell in and so Satan kind of does the repeat

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and just and Jesus passes the test and so Jesus actually surpasses what Moses was able

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to do he's obedient in every piece of the detail he's also obedient like Israel because

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Israel too faced 40 years in the wilderness and yet crumbled and complained again and

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again Jesus goes through that as God's son just as Israel is God's son and completes

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that task now the third one again we have to go back to these three groups Elijah after

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his great mountaintop battle on Mount Carmel Jezebel says I will not sleep until I kill

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Elijah and so he hightails itself he goes to bear Sheva he leaves his servant and keeps

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on running and when he finally comes to the place where there is a broom tree in Hebrew

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the word for broom tree is is Rotem and what's so interesting about that is the first place

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that the Israelites were once they come near the area of Kadesh Barnea is also called broom

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tree it's called a place called Ritma and it's there that they are going to encamp before

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they go into the land of Canaan it's there that Elijah is going to receive bread and

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water from the Lord and it says in the power of that that God had given he goes you guessed

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it 40 days and nights traveling to Mount Sinai where he hears God's voice the still small

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voice even though he sees the you know all the different things that come before him

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and he gets the revelation to to continue the story of course to pass the mantle to Elijah

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to to to move the kingdom from from Ahab and his sons to to Jehu and also to anoint a king

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named Hazel and so it's the same idea though the idea of this 40 being so crucial and so

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Jesus picks up on all this and surpasses it now really lastly it's no coincidence then

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that when we get to one of the key moments in the biblical story that we're on a high

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mountain and we're hearing God's voice out of a cloud that we have these three main

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figures all together Moses Elijah the prophets and the sun and we have God saying out of

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the cloud this is my beloved son listen to him that it's it's a it's not a put down to

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Moses and Elijah but it's putting them in their place as it were in connection with

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these three groups and that's kind of the basis of typology it's always to surpass and go

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beyond and then we could even say Jesus in that story in Luke 9 he says he's going to

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go to Jerusalem to make his exodus it's what it says in Greek to make his exodus which

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refers of course to his death his resurrection and his ascension when he goes to get another

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mountain and he ascends there are these two men in white shining robes which it's debated

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but could also be Elijah and a Moses of Moses normally it's associated with angels and what

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do we have we have Jesus ascending and it mentions the cloud the same cloud imagery of

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that God has and so it's just this beautiful story that has these apex moments that you

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know I always get choked up and get the goosebumps when you see Aragorn going to the last battle

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or even in these Marvel movies whether it's Iron Man at the end and the Bible does those

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and does them so much better because it's actually true it actually happened and it

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means something to your life and so I just hope you enjoy these stories as we're as we're

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reading them understanding them and seeing these long distance connections that to me

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is such a such a thrill to just see as literature but to see that it applies to me that I'm

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part of the story you know that that that those who follow the king that he is the one

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that we can all bow the knee to and enjoy forever and it's just again so encouraging

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to be able to read it in that way to actually feel free to enjoy in the Bible the things

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you already enjoy in literature and in film.

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And Chris I say all the time exactly what you said you can't make this stuff up and

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when you when you realize that there's just designs here there's spiritual principles

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that we see acted and then reenacted and in Jesus is 40 days of temptation in the wilderness

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such a reenactment of the 40 years of wandering in the temptation of the Israelites in the

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wilderness and who would make that up and you can't make this up but God is working

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out this beautiful divine plan and design through all of this and that's why I just

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I say the Bible is the most exciting book on the planet because of its accuracy but

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because of all of these patterns and the depth the spiritual depth of it and and so we just

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want to thank you for sharing with us from such a place of knowledge and of expertise

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and to share with us your excitement over the Bible and over the the stories and the

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accuracy of it so we just want to thank you for giving up your time and sharing with us

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today and once again we link in the show notes to the Geshe-Media project that he referred

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to and and as soon as you have your documentary done Chris please come back and talk to us

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further about the Tabernacle and the Temple as you'll be covering it in this documentary

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so thank you thank everyone for joining us see you back in a few days for walk through

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the Bible and until then God bless.

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We hope you have enjoyed this episode of Out of Zion with Susan Michael.

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Be sure to subscribe to Out of Zion now on Apple Podcasts, CPNshows.com, YouTube or wherever

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you like to listen and learn.

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Out of Zion with Susan Michael is a production of ICEJ USA All Rights Reserved.