Evidence of Joseph in Egypt with Tim Mahoney (Going Deeper Series)

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Welcome to Out of Zion with Susan Michael, an exploration of the Bible and the land of

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Israel.

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From ancient biblical sites to the story behind the stories, join Susan on a journey through

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the most exciting book on the planet.

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Hit the subscribe button for future episodes, which will deepen your faith and bring the

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Bible to life.

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And now, here's our host, Susan Michael.

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Well, welcome to our first episode of Going Deeper.

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And we are so excited today to have with us a very special guest that's going to really

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help us go deeper on the subject of the evidence of the Israelites in Egypt.

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And so we have with us today Tim Mahoney.

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He is a documentary filmmaker, director and author.

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And he has a film company called Thinking Man, let's see, Thinking Man Films, which

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I love the name.

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And the description is that we take curious people on a journey of becoming thinkers.

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And I love that.

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It's all about just being willing to ask questions and then analyze the answers that you're being

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given.

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Tim produced an amazing documentary that was released in 2015 called Patterns of Evidence,

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the Exodus.

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And we're here today to talk about some of the findings that are in that documentary.

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So I'd like to read for you just a little bit about that documentary.

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It's an award-winning documentary by filmmaker Timothy Mahoney that chronicles an in-depth

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archaeological investigation in Egypt as his team attempts to corroborate the biblical

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text.

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The film explores one fundamental question.

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Is there evidence that the Exodus story actually happened?

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Are the stories relived in the Passover celebration based on real history or not?

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Although many scholars and archaeologists deny the validity of the Exodus story for

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lack of proof, Patterns of Evidence, the Exodus builds a case that sheds new light on the story

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and reveals new and rarely seen evidence that may corroborate the biblical story.

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And I will say I found it to be exceptionally done, well done, and so exciting.

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So Tim, thank you so much for joining us here today.

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Well, thank you for having me on your program.

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I'd love to hear your story.

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How did you get started in this journey?

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Well, I didn't know it was going to be this long of a journey to be honest with you.

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I think I got started in this journey as a child, to be quite honest, because of my

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grandmother and my mother's faithfulness in reading to me from the Bible.

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So I grew up where before we went to bed every night, we had this Bible story book for children,

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the thing was called, and had illustrations.

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And so each night my mother would read with us, you know, read for us.

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And then we would have her.

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And so at an early age, I think that the biblical accounts were in my heart.

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And I always believed them to be true.

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But you know, as you grow older and you go to high school and you hear about evolution,

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you hear about all these different ideas in the world.

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And I grew up in the 70s and you start to people down to what you believe, just by their

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lifestyle.

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And so I went to a Christian college for two years.

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I didn't know what I was going to do.

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I thought I was going to be involved with music.

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But as it turned out, I was very interested in radio.

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And I on the radio, I heard an advertisement for a film school.

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And I had just seen the movie, The Hiding Place, which some of your listeners might

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remember.

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It's the story of Corey Ten Boom.

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And it was a Billy Graham film produced by World Wide Pictures.

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And I had never been to a movie.

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I was from a conservative Christian home.

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And I was like 17 or 18 years old.

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And I decided to see my first film in a theater.

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And it was with the possibility of being a filmmaker.

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And when I heard about this film school on a radio, I decided that after I've completed

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my studies at the Bible school, I would go into film and try to make a go of it.

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That's how it all started.

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But it was a long journey from the time I went to school until I actually made Patterns

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of Evidence.

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It was probably close to 30 years before I actually made a big film.

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Well, in terms of Patterns of Evidence itself, what took you to that subject?

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What led you onto that specific journey?

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It really was just an adventure.

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I had been making curriculum with Bible teachers and scholars.

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I had done probably 30 curriculum.

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So probably 300 episodes.

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I was always trying to find a way.

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And I sensed that there was something I was supposed to do.

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And I didn't know that I would become a documentary filmmaker, even though I had made documentaries

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in the past.

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I always was thinking it was just going to be much more flashy and making something

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like a feature film.

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But when I heard that people were searching, to be honest with you, for chariot wheels

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on the bottom of the sea floor in the Red Sea, I thought, that's crazy.

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Could there be?

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And we started meeting people that talked about it and said that they had been diving

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and looking for that.

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So back in around 2000, the year 2000 is when I heard about these things.

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And I'd seen another film that had been produced by it, and I was going to help them.

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But as it turned out, I ended up being so gripped by this that I got pulled into the

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whole investigation myself.

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And after 2002, the year 2002, we ended up going into Egypt to begin what became the

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first scenes that were shot in the patterns of the Exodus.

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Well, I have to believe that because of this journey that you've been on in your life,

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that making this documentary was life changing because the findings are so exciting.

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And what's your takeaway from the journey you've been on that we can share with our

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audience?

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Well, one thing I'll share is that, you know, for a lot of people, they might have heard

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a negative about the Bible.

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And I did.

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In fact, in my one of the very first scenes when I went to Egypt, I went to the very

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location where the Israelites were said to have lived.

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And I talked to the Egyptologists there, Man for B-Tech, and he had been there for years

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digging and I thought he was saying there's evidence.

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But when I got there, I said, have you found any evidence for the Israelites?

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And he said, so far, no.

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And when he said those words, it was like, I was absolutely just struck and stunned because

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I couldn't believe what he was saying.

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And it took me so much work to get from where I live, Minnesota, all the way to Egypt, to

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where the Israelites live.

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It was a long journey to get there.

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And then to hear that, that that began a seed of doubt in my life, that when I carried it

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home, I was in this office here just in another room in an attisuit looking at that footage

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when I had a crisis of faith.

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A thought came into my mind that maybe everything I had believed about the Bible was false.

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But my mother and my grandmother believed that it was all a lie.

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And this enormous sense of hopelessness came over me.

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And then almost out of the same, another thought came into my mind from the other side.

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It was like, stop editing, get up, go to your office.

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And so I came into this office and there's a bookcase that we had over here.

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And I said, read that book.

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And it was a book.

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Actually, I have a copy of it here.

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It was this book, Farrows and Kings, I kind of see it there, by David Rohl.

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When I opened this book up, someone had given to me a few years before and said, you should

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read this.

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Well, I have lots of books.

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But this one was the same dig site that I had been at.

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And David Rohl, an Egyptologist who was an agnostic, by the way, he actually was pointing

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to the work that Manfred B. Tech was doing.

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And he was saying that beneath the area they think it should be is where the real evidence

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for the Bible is.

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And that then began me on this journey to go to England.

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And it started a whole new part of my life and investigation.

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So you asked the question, so how has it impacted me?

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What I've seen is that the Bible, I've become more and more confident in the historical credibility

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of Bible than I've ever been.

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And as we've uncovered these things, you know, we've made multiple films.

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The next film I realized that we had to make was called the Moses Controversy.

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And do you know at that same location where the Israelites were at in Goshen, this land

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in the Eastern Delta, is where the world's first alphabet also is identified to have

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come from.

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So things started to come together.

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As I started looking, this technique of looking for patterns of evidence, what was happening

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is the biblical account was becoming alive and things were fitting together.

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And as you know, in our films, we create patterns that we look for.

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So we look for sequences, you know, can we find the arrival?

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Can we find the multiplication?

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Can we find slavery?

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All these things start adding up.

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And we then are finding an amazing pattern that matches the biblical account in the

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right sequence.

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And that's basically the kinds of things that I've been doing with these films.

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And what's so amazing is that that's in the face of mainstream archaeologists and scholars

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who are saying there is no evidence and you go to Egypt and you show all of this amazing

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evidence and you easily explain it's just a matter of the dating of the time period.

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So let's talk about that a minute because one of the problems is that in the Bible,

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it mentions the land of Ramses as that that's the land the Israelites left when they began

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the Exodus.

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So that would imply that they were there during or after Ramses II who built the city of Ramses.

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But there's such a thing as called an anachronistic usage of the description.

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And we have it in other places in the Bible with other cities and other examples.

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So to say that when the Bible was being written down, the story was being written down, the

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writer described the area that it was known later on, that when the Israelites were there,

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it was not yet called Ramses, but during the telling of the story, it was.

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So can you just elaborate a little bit more about that timing issue and the city of Ramses?

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Yes, this is a great point.

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And what we know is that in the book of Genesis, it says that Jacob and his family went to

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the land of Ramses.

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I mean, this is, you know, they're in this area and we realized that well, Ramses didn't

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exist at the time of Jacob.

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And so what's happening is that there's a city.

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So you know, there's a word called tell and a tell is a mound of which cities are built

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upon because once a war, you know, let's say a city is burned down and is crumbled, then

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they, but there's a reason that's a good location for a city.

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They build a new one and it keeps getting taller and taller.

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Well in this particular case, there is a city underneath the city of Ramses and that city

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was called a virus.

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And so as the, as the archeologists were digging, they were uncovering what, what looked like

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a biblical count.

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And it was the small group of people who were not Egyptian.

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These people were submitting and the Israelites were submitting.

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So these people came into the area and they were allowed to be there.

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They were given permission to come into this area because they could tell just by the way

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they were able to be there and they lived in different types of homes, not the types that

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Egyptians would live in.

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And the small community comes in there and then they start to expand and grow and prosper.

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And when they uncovered the graves, they could see that some of these people were very, very

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wealthy.

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They were almost like princes.

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And it kind of gives you an understanding of what possibly did Jacob and his sons, what

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kind of wealth did they have when they came in to live, when Joseph invited them in to

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live.

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So what's happening and what Egyptologist, Averol was saying was that this archeology

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is matching the biblical narrative.

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But because many people have placed biblical narrative at the time of Ramses hundreds

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of years earlier, they, they don't connect it and they will not connect it.

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So all I'm doing in the films is saying, well, where is the pattern?

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What kind of evidence matches what the Bible says?

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And I'm just showing it.

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And that's basically the approach that we're using.

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And what we're seeing is that these people arrive, they're not Egyptian.

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They build homes that are more Israelite oriented.

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They grow into a large group.

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But then there's what appears to be hardship.

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And this group of people look as though they're not as healthy and their graves, they can

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tell that they're, they're sick and, and they're, and not only that, but there appears now to

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be more women than men, which is also matching the biblical text of the culling of the first

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war.

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So what we're seeing is the first part of, you know, Genesis working our way into the

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time when finally Moses comes when there's slavery that's, that's coming.

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And some of the documents too have, there's a, there's some papyrus that actually, you

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know, has names and the names seem likely to come right out of the Bible.

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And these are Jewish names, Semitic names, names like Menachem, Ishakar, Asher, Shifara

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on a slave list from this earlier time period.

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So what we're seeing is that people that appear to have the same types of names that

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we do mention biblical texts are showing up on slave lists earlier in time than what

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most people would consider the Israelites being there.

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And that is called the Brooklyn papyrus.

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And you show it in your documentary and talk about it.

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And it proves there were Hebrew slaves in an earlier time period than the city of Ramsey.

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There's two other proofs that the time of Ramsey's is too late.

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And that's in the Merneptah stele and the Berlin pedestal, if I'm right.

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So can you explain those two findings?

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Right.

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The Merneptah stele is, it says, it's a, it's by Merneptah, which is one of the sons

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of Ramesses.

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And he's basically saying that Israel is captive and that they are, they're been suppressed.

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They've been underneath his control.

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And what, the reason why that is very odd, if you have a Ramesses time period for the

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excess, which is around 1250 BC, is because that the Israelites wouldn't have had time

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to establish as the land.

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They were still in the wandering.

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So there's no, it doesn't make sense.

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And when you start to place information on a timeline and you're looking at people are

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saying that Ramesses was the Pharaoh of the Exodus and that, you know, that they, they

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left at that time, what we're saying is that after Ramesses passing, I believe Merneptah

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came along and within just several years, I'm not sure how many years it is, but it's

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probably four or five years.

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I think this stele comes up.

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And it's, it's saying things that Israel would have been established.

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So in the land, which was way too early, it doesn't match the biblical account of wandering,

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the 40 years in the wilderness.

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So what we're, what other scholars are telling us is that it's telling us, yes, that they

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were there, but they were there much earlier in time.

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And so the battle for the Bible, one of the fronts is chronology.

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It's the dating of, of events.

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And that's where a lot of reasons for some people saying, well, if it happened at the

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time of Ramesses, then it didn't happen because they're not finding any evidence of the Israelites

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at that time.

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But if you look earlier in history, in the Egyptian record, that's when you see the

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Simeic people and the Israelites in this area that we talked about of a virus actually has

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something happen where there were plague pits that show up.

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And they see that people are thrown in and not buried properly.

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And it matches the account where the, you know, the Passover, where the blood of the

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lamb was to be spread on the doorposts and that the angel of death would come through

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the land and whoever didn't put that blood of the lamb on their doorpost, they were

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killed.

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But if you did, you were passed over and you were saved.

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And what David Rawls is saying is that, hey, these pits that show up appear to be of plague,

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you know, people, and then they're not buried properly.

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And then all the population leaves.

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And what he's suggesting is that's the Exodus.

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That's the time of the Exodus.

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In fact, there's even a document that talks about, it's called the Epubur, Epubur, I'm

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trying to, the admonitions of an Egyptian sage.

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And if I can find a couple of lines here, I would read it to you.

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But it's basically saying that the river has turned to blood.

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And those who, slaves who had no wealth are walking around with britches.

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Well, how did that happen?

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Well, remember, when they left, they were told to go and ask for wealth from the Egyptians,

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and they were given gold and silver and earrings.

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And it says that death is everywhere.

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There's mourning and all the things almost word for word that the scripture says also

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was matched in this document called the Admonitions of an Egyptian Sage, the Ipuer Papyrus.

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Yes.

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And Ipuer was an Egyptian writing what looks to be a story very, very, very similar to

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the plagues and to the Exodus.

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So I want to sum up what we've said so far, and then I want to talk a little bit more

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about the city of Averis, because there's some really, really exciting finds there.

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So what we've said is that archaeology itself indicates the Israelites were already in Canaan

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and an established nation by the time of Ramses.

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So that plus of correct interpretation of the Bible, meaning that they use the place

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name later than it was really named that.

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So this is indicating the Israelites were in Egypt earlier than the period of Ramses.

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And then you, by looking at the earlier time periods, have found these various patterns

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of the Israelites.

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And a lot of it is in the city of Averis.

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And so you've talked about they were very wealthy, they were doing well.

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I read or heard maybe on your documentary, it was like the largest city almost in the

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entire Levant at that time.

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That's how populous this people group had become, which is exactly what the Bible says.

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And then you see their decline in health as they're oppressed and maybe made slaves.

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We have found a papyrus from the similar time naming Hebrew slaves.

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So all these indications and what I find fascinating is the archaeologists are not

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asking these questions.

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They just do not want to prove the Bible in a way.

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They just, I think some of them almost find joy in saying there's no proof of the Bible

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because they're looking at the wrong time period.

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And you went in asking questions and digging deeper.

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So tell us now a little bit more about Averis because there's this house that was built

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that was later leveled in a palace built on top of it.

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Explain that to us.

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That's correct.

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Yes.

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So at the center of this community is this house and it's called the Middlesale House,

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I believe it's a German tech term for a, it's a multi room house.

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But it's the different style of architecture that is not used in Egypt.

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It comes from the area of Haran, I believe it.

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And this is where Jacob's family would have come from originally.

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And so what they're seeing is that they call it, I think they see a connection with the

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Israelites in this house.

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And so there's this one main house and it's, it's supposed.

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And by the way, a lot of what I've done, I'm not an archaeologist.

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I'm not an Egyptologist.

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What I'm doing is I'm, I'm more of a, I'm an investigative filmmaker.

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So I'm not finding all the evidence, but I'm finding the evidence that exists and making

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it into a film in a way that most people haven't collected it before.

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And what this would Egyptologist David Rose identifying was that, was that this house

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then was destroyed with Manfrid B. Tech, the Egyptologist Stelling was destroyed and a

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palace was built on top of it.

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Now that's unusual.

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But I believe that there's a custom that when the head of a home dies, then another person

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takes that area and then rebuilds on top of that his home.

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And if Joseph was, let's say considered in a sense a patriarch of the family because

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of his position as the, the second in command in Israel, then he would have had, when he

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retired, he would have had a place he would have wanted to live among his family.

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That's one of the, the ideas that, that he would have had a palace here.

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So here's this palace in the midst of all these Semitic type people.

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And they found that there was a cemetery.

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Families had cemeteries attached to their homes so that you could pay your specs.

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And there was a tomb there, a very unusual tomb, which was a pyramid tomb.

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And inside that pyramid tomb was a person who was not Egyptian, but it was Semitic.

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There was a statue, a mortuary statue that was, that put up there.

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And the person had a different color skin.

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It was light color skin, red hair.

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So it was, he was a, he was a Semitic.

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He wasn't a dark, darker person like an Egyptian.

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And this person had a coat of many colors.

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It was a multicolored coat.

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And he had a, like a staff of authority.

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So what we know is there's a Semitic person buried in a pyramid tomb.

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And what we understand is that these pyramid tombs weren't given to, they've never found

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another, I believe, another tomb that was given to a Semitic person that was a pyramid.

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And if we look at the Bible and you see what Joseph did by saving the nation of Egypt from

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this famine, he would have been honored.

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But what ends up happening is at this cemetery site, there are also 11 other principal tombs.

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And so what do we know is we have an important tomb and then live at other tombs that are

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there.

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And there were 12 sons that Jacob had.

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And the palace, by the way, also had 12 pillars.

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So there's a question of, is this number 12 significant?

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We know there's the 12 tribes of Israel.

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So what they found out though, when they opened the tomb was that the, that the bones were

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missing from the pyramid tomb.

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That had been broken into once before.

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And what does Joseph tell his brothers?

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He says, when you go back to the land promised to us by Abraham, but by God through, you

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know, through Abraham and the promise that was made to Abraham, take my bones with you,

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bring me back.

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And I believe that this is matching once again, the biblical account of, you know, the promise

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that Joseph made his brothers make so that when they, the archeologists got there, the

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bones were gone.

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And what's unusual is that nobody steals bones.

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When they go to, they steal jewelry, they steal other things, gold, whatever, but they

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don't steal the bones, but the bones were missing.

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And once again, like a hand in a glove, like a hand in a glove, the biblical account is

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matching the pattern of evidence that the archeologists were uncovering.

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And that's why many people see this as the location where Joseph and his family, the

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early Israelites lived.

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Well, I think it's just absolutely fascinating, this palace and the 12 graves and one of them,

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a tomb grave.

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And I mean, you can't find a more perfect evidence of Joseph and the Israelites in Egypt.

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There's just one final thing we'll talk about before we end our time today.

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And that is there's a famous canal in Egypt that even today is called the canal of Joseph.

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Tell us about that.

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Well, David Rohl, Egyptologists also identified that canal and others have because it's called

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00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:20,880
the, so the question would be, if there's flooding, how do you stop flooding?

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How do you prepare for flooding or famine?

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And one of the thoughts would be to create a offshoot.

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So where if the water comes, the water's flood, you know, coming from Africa, it's flowing

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actually north into the Mediterranean Sea.

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And each year it would, it would flood.

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And so one of the questions that he looked at was if there was flooding during a particular

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time or because of rain or whatever, sometimes that also can prevent crops from growing because

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if you can't get the crop in the ground because it's underwater, that's similar to a famine.

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You can't plant.

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So he's seeing that this canal, he believes that it was it was dug under the direction

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of Joseph to be a relief valve to take water during the time of flooding.

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And that's, that's the understanding that has been there for thousands of years.

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And it was created because Joseph was looking at the situation in Egypt and finding a way

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to off to divert the water from flooding the land.

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So those are some of the things that are in our films and books that we have.

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And it's just once again, looking for that pattern of evidence in the sequence that then

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matches the biblical account.

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Yes.

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And that canal, we know for the last thousand years, it's been called the canal of of Joseph.

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We don't know what it was called, you know, 3000 years ago, but the famous the rap, the

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00:28:54,920 --> 00:29:03,120
Fero that you think is the Fero of the time of Joseph, the favorable Fero of Joseph.

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He built a pyramid next to that waterway.

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Is that correct?

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00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:07,440
Yeah, that's correct.

402
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:08,440
Yes.

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00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,880
And so, yeah, so there's all these different questions.

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00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:17,040
And obviously, because I'm involved with different viewpoints, we're constantly hearing

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from different points of view.

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And that's another thing that when we make patterns of evidence films, what we're trying

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to do is I have a point of view, but I'm listening to multiple different viewpoints,

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including people who say it didn't happen and saying, OK, convince me if you if you're

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saying this didn't happen, why do you say that?

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Help me understand this better.

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And so we're trying to hear from different viewpoints to help the audience make a decision.

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Well, thank you, Tim, for your time today.

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I really recommend everyone get the patterns of evidence, the Exodus DVD and watch this.

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It's about what is it, almost two hours in length, Tim.

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It really goes into detail.

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It shows you everything and it's done so well.

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It's very, very easy to understand and follow.

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So we link to it in our show notes to today's show, which are found right below.

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And we really encourage you to get that.

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And also come back next week for our Going Deeper segment part two, where we're going

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to continue with him and discuss the evidence of the Exodus and the Red Sea crossing.

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So Tim, thank you so much.

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We appreciate your time today.

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And thank you, everyone that joined us.

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And we look forward to being back with you again next week.

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Until then, God bless.

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We hope you have enjoyed this episode of Out of Zion with Susan Michael.

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Be sure to subscribe to Out of Zion now on Apple Podcasts, cpnshows.com, YouTube, or

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wherever you like to listen and learn.

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Out of Zion with Susan Michael is a production of ICEJ USA All Rights Reserved.