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Feb. 25, 2021
Evidence of the Exodus with Tim Mahoney (Going Deeper Series)
Susan interviews Tim Mahoney, film producer of Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus and Pattterns of Evidence: The Red Sea. Find out about the possible locations for the events of the exodus and the Red Sea crossing.
To purchase Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus - https://www.icej.store/store/product/video/exodus-dvd
To purchase Patterns of Evidence: The Red Sea - https://www.icej.store/store/product/video/red-sea-miracle-1-and-2-dvd-combo-pack
For more information on Tim Mahoney visit www.patternsofevidence.com
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Sign up for emails about upcoming shows: http://www.outofzionshow.com
More info on Susan: https://www.icejusa.org/susans-blog
Transcript
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Welcome to Out of Zion with Susan Michael, an exploration of the Bible and the land of
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Israel.
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From ancient biblical sites to the story behind the stories, join Susan on a journey through
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the most exciting book on the planet.
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Hit the subscribe button for future episodes, which will deepen your faith and bring the
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Bible to life.
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And now, here's our host, Susan Michael.
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Well, welcome back.
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This is our second segment of the Going Deeper series.
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And this is part two of our interview with Tim Mahoney, who is an award-winning filmmaker
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and producer, director, and author, and has done some really exciting documentaries.
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We highlighted last week his first documentary on patterns of evidence, the Exodus.
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And this week, we're going to be talking about some of that, as well as a second documentary
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on patterns of evidence, the Red Sea, part one and two.
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And we're going to be talking about evidences for the Exodus from Egypt, archaeological
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evidences.
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So before we get started, let me describe to you about his second documentary on the
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Red Sea miracle.
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It's a two-part film series examining the journey to the crossing location, looking
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at two competing views of the Red Sea miracle.
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One he calls the Egyptian approach, which looks near Egypt, and the other he calls the
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Hebrew approach, which looks far from Egypt at the Gulf of Aqaba, where divers have been
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searching for the remains of Pharaoh's army on the sea floor.
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The investigation raises giant questions about the real location for the crossing of the
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Red Sea, and the implications on your view of God based on these two different approaches.
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So the answers to these questions point to one of two very different realities in the
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story.
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So Tim, welcome back.
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Thank you so much for joining us again today.
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Oh, it's great to be on the program again, and I'm glad to be talking about the films.
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Well, you know, since watching the documentary, I've noticed that most Bible maps in the back
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of my Bibles and online, most of them show this what you call the Egyptian approach to
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the wilderness crossing.
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And so I want us to understand a little bit better these two different approaches.
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And so can you explain it a little bit farther for us?
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Right.
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One of the other things that I have done is I've tried to help condense information so
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that, you know, I have to understand it myself until I figured out myself.
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And what I was seeing was that there appeared to be an approach that was in was very influenced
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by Egypt and by Egyptology.
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And I call that approach the Egyptian approach.
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And that is that the Exodus events happen very close to Egypt, that the Israelites crossed
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a body of water right next to Egypt or on the boundary, lakes of Egypt, and that all
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these events have also connections to Egyptian words.
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And so that's one one idea.
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For example, there's the word in Hebrew, yam, suf.
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And that was the name that Moses used to describe the sea that was crossed.
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Yam meaning sea, but suf, the question is, what does suf mean?
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And what the Egyptian approach would say is that suf means reeds, that it is the sea of
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reeds or that there's reeds involved.
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And so that's the reason why a lot of scholars in the last number of years have have moved
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the thinking of the sea crossing to those border lakes.
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And the other group is I call Hebrew.
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And those are looking at the Hebrew word and you're saying, wait a minute, yam suf, suf
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does not mean green.
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It means end or boundary.
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And it was used to describe yam suf is used as the name for the Gulf of Aqaba, which is
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the right arm of the Red Sea that comes up to Elat in Israel.
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It's used to describe the boundary.
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When Moses talks about the boundary of the nation or the promised land, the southern
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boundary is this location called yam suf, which is connected to the Gulf of Aqaba.
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So is it the sea of reeds or is the sea of boundary is the Gulf of Aqaba?
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So are we looking at lakes or are we looking at us, you know, the sea?
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And along with that then comes different views as to how the water was parted.
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So the bottom line here is that the Egyptian approach and the sea of reeds is a much, much
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smaller miracle because the water levels are so much lower.
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Whereas the Hebrew approach over at the Gulf of Aqaba, that's a very deep body of water.
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And so that's more in keeping with how the Bible describes this major stopping of the
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water and a wall of water on both sides of the Israelites as they walked across.
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And then it being deep enough to drown the Egyptian army.
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And so it's a matter of how big is the miracle these two locations?
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So my question to you is why do most people assume this Egyptian approach with the smaller
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miracle?
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Is there more evidence pointing towards that one?
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I think the idea of natural, in other words, that God works within the laws of nature of
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people that look at this as a, because it says the ancient was the wind.
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Some interpret, even if that happened at the Gulf of Aqaba, there are some that believe
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it happened at the tip of the Gulf further up north at another body of water where the
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wind was blowing for a long time, you know, for several hours.
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And then over the time that would call what's called wind set down, it pushes the water
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back.
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And so what you end up with is a piece of dry land and waters.
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For miles, you know, I mean, it's a it's a long stretch.
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But the challenge that people in Hebrew would have pointed out, it says that there were walls
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of water on each both sides of them.
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And if you do a wind set down, then you don't see that wall of water.
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It's so far off that it just hardly looks like anything.
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And so that's the that's the challenge that people are suggesting.
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So the question that goes back to wire have people been attracted to this idea is that,
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you know, in the 1800s, when Darwinism came into play and people are looking for naturalistic
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explanations for creation and for a number of things, there are there are people that
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are trying to take the supernatural out of the equation and to try to find out, well,
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how could this have happened in a more naturalistic way?
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But in the defense of people on the Egyptian side that are believers, they would say that,
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wait a minute, it's the timing that God caused the wind to blow at just the right time.
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And that's the miracle.
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The miracle is in the timing of God's provision, which is very true that God miraculous timing
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for when it rains or when it doesn't rain or whatever.
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There can be, you know, God acting in nature, which is which can happen.
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And so that's where these two felt that these well, I made two films about it because there's
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so much to talk about.
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Brent C. Miracle one and two cover these two different viewpoints.
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And the big question then is what does that say about the miracle?
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Well, you know, when I was watching it, I kept asking myself, well, could the water levels
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of those Egyptian lakes have been higher back 3000 years ago?
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You know, that it is could be an extension of the Red Sea and the Suez now there, the
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Suez, could it have been deeper then?
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That's a great question.
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And I'm trying to remember, I don't know if I have a good answer for you, but I've been
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told by one scholar that, yes, the water was was deeper at that time.
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And often what happens is that the water is coming from it's coming because it's being
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filled up, you know, from the Nile.
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And there's there's different places.
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And it's an it's an area where there's many different lakes.
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So we don't know there's different theories as to which lake happened.
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But you should also know that the Nile Delta has been has been going off out into the Mediterranean
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Sea to.
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So some of the places that exist don't exist the way they were back then.
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And the Nile keeps twisting and turning and it's changing its course and certain areas
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where the now was the now moved.
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And so a lot of what was there isn't there anymore.
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And and so there's different possibly even a much more precipitation and more of a green
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greenness to the area.
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That's another question about the, you know, Exodus out of Egypt was the Sinai more lush
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than it was today, because that was 3,500 years ago.
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And it's very possible that that the the environment has changed.
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Well, you've certainly done your share of research on this.
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So I'm really interested to know some more detail here.
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Other than the the weakness of the Egyptian theory is that the water levels as we understand
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them just are not high enough to produce these walls of water on two sides and then to drown
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the Egyptian army.
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You can you can show a wind and and creating parting the water so to walk across.
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But the rest of the story, it's really, really hard to recreate that right.
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Yes, what you're referring to to, we showed in the film is that in route to have water
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parting with winds out, it can't be very deep.
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It has to be, you know, in that two to four feet, depending upon how much wind does it
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take to blow in to blow water and how much time does it take to blow that water?
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Now when the water comes back, it'll be a taller, you know, it'll be more like six
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feet or eight feet will be like a surge coming back.
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So the the idea here is that that even though it might have been a shallow, you know, water
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that people in their defense for the Egyptian approach think that this water when it comes
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back would actually be scary.
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It would be like eight to 10 feet, you know, and if you're only, let's say six feet tall,
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you don't need more than, let's say six and a half feet of water to drown in if you don't
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know how to swim or if you're tumbling in the current and everything.
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So that's what they're saying.
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But I think the some people have said, well, the miracle is not could the water part, but
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how did that many Egyptians drown in that shallow water?
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I've heard that joke a few times.
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And so that's the reason why we've been looking at it because there are many, many scholars
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that that support this near Egypt approach.
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And so we're just raising the question and and saying, well, if you look at this pattern
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of evidence and you you had passed what has happened historically, because every Bible
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shows crossings real near Egypt, the Sea of Reeds.
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So you've been, you know, in a sense had that indoctrination of in the back of every Bible,
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you see where the Israelites, you know, cross this Red Sea next to Egypt or the bitter lakes
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or one of these lakes.
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And then they go down to the traditional Mount Sinai.
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And but there are other names and other connections that we see in the Hebrew approach that they're
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saying there needs to be considerations here.
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And but if you have maybe a hundred years of people naming things close to Egypt and
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they've built a case and they've taught that for years, that's basically a tradition that's
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been passed on to many, many people.
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And so as we've gone on these films and said, well, what's well, are there other ways to
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look at this that might find us answers that are more satisfying?
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Well, the Yom Suf, you already mentioned that, but Yom Suf, which can be translated either
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Sea of Reeds or it's been translated as the Red Sea.
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You said it literally means the end, see the word or could be.
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But Yom Suf, does that appear anywhere else in the Bible?
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Yom Suf appears, yes, it appears, I believe on Hezekiah and I think it was Hezekiah and
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Solomon, they had a fleet of ships on Yom Suf.
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So there are other other biblical references to Yom Suf.
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Once again, it's when the Moses is writing the boundary of Israel.
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So my question has been, if Moses is referencing that name and in the same account that he's
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describing not too long after the sea crossing and he's using Yom Suf for the sea crossing
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and then he's using Yom Suf for the boundary, does he mean anything different?
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Because we know the boundary of Israel is not one of these lakes next to Egypt.
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We know we see it as the Gulf of Aqaba, which is an arm of the Red Sea and it's over on
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the east side of the Sinai Desert.
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So that's where Solomon would have had his ships, correct?
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Correct, yes.
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And so what some people said, oh, there's many Yoms Sufs and that's a clever idea.
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But I said, well, isn't the point of giving something a name so you know where it is,
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you know, I mean, to name something, is this the sea of the end, is Aqaba that sea?
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And so that's when people see the films, they're going to be able to see the argument and they
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can do more research for themselves.
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What I was trying to point out was that I could film multiple scholars and they were
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giving me these different positions.
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So in our films, what we try to do is to categorize things so that people can better understand
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the basic arguments that are being made.
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And then you measure them for a pattern and you're looking to see, does this satisfy a
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pattern that we can see that the scripture is the account is defining or describing?
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And you say, well, which one matches the pattern the best?
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Well, in addition to the location of Yoms Suf, there are other locations that are mentioned
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in the Exodus story.
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So it says that they leave Ramses there at Sukkot, they go to Ethom.
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It mentions a Mighdal in Balsaphone and Paihati wrote.
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You pronounce that.
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And so, you know, we'll see those locations mapped out on our Bible maps and the route
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that they took.
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And then there's a Refideen that I think has 12 springs, all these places in the story.
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Can you find, can you map those locations to a farther away Red Sea Exodus?
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They seem to be closer there to the Egyptian lakes.
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Correct.
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Correct.
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Yes.
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So what has happened is that the names for, let's say Mighdal, which means Ford, these
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words, Paihati wrote, they're coordinates to tell you where the sea crossing happened.
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And in both cases, the Egyptian approach has used Egyptian names and they're using them
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to say, I can find these terms here near Egypt and they are matching the biblical text.
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And the Hebrew approach is saying, no, Sukkot means, you know, I think it means campsite.
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So they're saying that the sea of Yamsuf is in a wilderness and it's not right next
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to Egypt.
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It's the way of the wilderness of Yamsuf is a road that crosses the Sinai and they're
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saying that this is the direction that they're heading and that they stop at this place called
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Ethan.
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I think it's a flat area and there's identifications where that campsite might be.
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So what ends up happening is we have educated guesses by biblical geographers on different
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camps and they're going to say, this is my Ethan or Etim and this is my Pihaihirov.
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I believe that the Hebrew term for Pihaihirov means mouth of the cave and some now in Egyptian
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approach would say it means mouth of the canal, but it's an opening.
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And so that people like Professor Hopmeyer will say that it's right next to canals and
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that they were in that area.
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And others will say, no, there's a gorge that opens up that's like a cave opening and it's
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the mouth of this gorge where they're going into the Wadiwateer down to Nweebo.
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And so as we look at the different presentations, I liken it a little bit to motor trends where
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your people have vehicles, right?
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And you're looking at the latest models and you're looking at these different models and
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you're comparing the performance of those.
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Well, we have the same things with these ideas that people have taken and said, well, which
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ones make the most sense?
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And so the Hebrew approach is saying that I've seen when I've listened to scholars, they're
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finding those terms and they're making a case for this is the name.
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This is where this name fits my place, my crossing.
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And in the film, we show I think seven different locations that potential were there, three
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up in Egypt and then there's the crossings.
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There's four ones at the tip of the Gulf of Aqaba, which is the Straits of Turan.
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The other ones at Nweebo Beach, which is in the center of the Gulf of Aqaba.
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Then there's one at the tip of Aqaba, which is Sir Colin Humphries from Cambridge and
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he thinks that and then there's one a little bit further north in the body of bodies of
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water that show up.
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I'm not sure how far it is, but let's say eight to 10 miles north where there's water
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that is up in that area and that there's a connection to that with these minds.
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So each one of those scholars builds their case for why they think these biblical terms
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fit.
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Well, I guess the takeaway is that the Bible can absolutely be true and be accurate in
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this story.
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And the fact that we don't know the locations exactly doesn't mean that they weren't exact
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locations in the story is very, very specifically true.
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This leads us to our last question, Tim, about Mount Horib.
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There's a famous Mount Sinai with a monastery there, but there's other locations depending
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on the story and the route will depend on where Mount Sinai is.
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What do you have to say about that?
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That's correct.
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And you know, one of the things is that there are geographical indicators in the scripture
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as you look at it.
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And what I'm seeing is plausibility is that we're trying to look at because it's something
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that happened 3,500 years ago.
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And I've talked to some scholars and say, well, how would you find this?
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But you can look at geographical indicators and the next film, Journey to Mount Sinai,
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is what we're working on now.
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And Journey to Mount Sinai is going to pick us up from the crossing.
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So this is what happens is if you cross the Gulf of Aqaba, you are now in Saudi Arabia
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and in the Northwest part of that is the ancient land of Midian.
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And for me, that was very compelling because I believe that Moses, as we know, he fled
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from Egypt after he killed an Egyptian and he fled and he stayed with Jethro and he lived
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in the land of Midian for 40 years.
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And this is where he had this encounter with God at the burning bush and said, bring these
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people back to me at this mountain.
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So what's happening is that there are a number of people that like that area and they believe
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that Yamsu is the Gulf of Aqaba.
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There are other people that say, no, they crossed one of these seas and if they crossed
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one of these seas up near Egypt, they could still end up in the land of Midian.
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And some people can send them across the Sinai to other moans such as Har Kharkun, which
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is in the southern Nakev moan.
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Southern Nakev, it's an area that my wife and I were able to go there.
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And there's other things that they say match the biblical text.
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And then others take them down into the Sinai Peninsula and there's a connection where they're
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looking at that.
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So Journey to Mount Sinai is our next film.
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But once again, if you cross, depending on what sea you cross, it does indicate that
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you're heading, that the mountain has to be on the other side of that.
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That's most likely what we're saying, which makes sense.
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It's very practical.
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And I think that there are some very compelling pieces of evidence that have been brought
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forward that we're going to be showing in the coming up films that we've got.
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In fact, we're going to make two of them.
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One's called Journey to Mount Sinai and the second one is Mountain of God.
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And Mountain of God really is an exciting film too.
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Probably too early to talk about it, but it's really about what's happening in our nation
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right now and happening in the world.
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Is there a God?
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And did He give these commands?
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And all the things that are established, this is where Israel, God marries Israel at this
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mountain.
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They make a covenant with Him.
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And if we look at the covenants that have been made through time, I think covenants
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are very, very important.
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And I'm excited about these next two films because they're going to continue to help
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give us deeper understanding into what happened that changed the world with this covenant.
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So this is exciting stuff, exciting materials, and there's physical evidence that we're going
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to look at that is very, very, you know, that it matches the biblical account.
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We can't wait till you have your next two films.
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We'll certainly have you back then to discuss them.
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And I know that our short time here together today is just a real introduction to what
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you lay out in just beautiful detail in your documentary, Patterns of Evidence, The Red
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Sea, Part One and Part Two.
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So we link in our show notes to today's show how you can order that documentary as well
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as his first one, Patterns of Evidence on the Exodus.
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Really recommend you get both, and I should say all three, all three parts and really
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dig deeper.
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And for me, the takeaway is that don't let the skeptics tell you that the Bible is not
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true, that there's no evidence to it.
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Just because we cannot tell you exactly these place names and the wilderness wanderings
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and the Red Sea crossing, there are so many possibilities, places that line up with the
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text.
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And so be encouraged and stick with us on the rest of our time together and going
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deeper.
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And we're going to have Tim back next week or in a few weeks, actually, and we're going
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to discuss the evidence of the conquest of the land of Israel.
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So we look forward to having everyone back with us then.
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And Tim, thank you so much.
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We look forward to having you back with us next time.
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And until then, God bless.
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We hope you have enjoyed this episode of Out of Zion with Susan Michael.
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Be sure to subscribe to Out of Zion now on Apple Podcasts, cpnshows.com, YouTube, or
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wherever you like to listen and learn.
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Out of Zion with Susan Michael is a production of ICEJ USA All Rights Reserved.
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Welcome to Out of Zion with Susan Michael, an exploration of the Bible and the land of
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Israel.
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From ancient biblical sites to the story behind the stories, join Susan on a journey through
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the most exciting book on the planet.
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Hit the subscribe button for future episodes, which will deepen your faith and bring the
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Bible to life.
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And now, here's our host, Susan Michael.
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Well, welcome back.
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This is our second segment of the Going Deeper series.
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And this is part two of our interview with Tim Mahoney, who is an award-winning filmmaker
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and producer, director, and author, and has done some really exciting documentaries.
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We highlighted last week his first documentary on patterns of evidence, the Exodus.
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And this week, we're going to be talking about some of that, as well as a second documentary
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on patterns of evidence, the Red Sea, part one and two.
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And we're going to be talking about evidences for the Exodus from Egypt, archaeological
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evidences.
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So before we get started, let me describe to you about his second documentary on the
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Red Sea miracle.
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It's a two-part film series examining the journey to the crossing location, looking
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at two competing views of the Red Sea miracle.
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One he calls the Egyptian approach, which looks near Egypt, and the other he calls the
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Hebrew approach, which looks far from Egypt at the Gulf of Aqaba, where divers have been
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searching for the remains of Pharaoh's army on the sea floor.
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The investigation raises giant questions about the real location for the crossing of the
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Red Sea, and the implications on your view of God based on these two different approaches.
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So the answers to these questions point to one of two very different realities in the
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story.
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So Tim, welcome back.
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Thank you so much for joining us again today.
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Oh, it's great to be on the program again, and I'm glad to be talking about the films.
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Well, you know, since watching the documentary, I've noticed that most Bible maps in the back
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of my Bibles and online, most of them show this what you call the Egyptian approach to
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the wilderness crossing.
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And so I want us to understand a little bit better these two different approaches.
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And so can you explain it a little bit farther for us?
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Right.
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One of the other things that I have done is I've tried to help condense information so
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that, you know, I have to understand it myself until I figured out myself.
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And what I was seeing was that there appeared to be an approach that was in was very influenced
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by Egypt and by Egyptology.
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And I call that approach the Egyptian approach.
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And that is that the Exodus events happen very close to Egypt, that the Israelites crossed
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a body of water right next to Egypt or on the boundary, lakes of Egypt, and that all
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these events have also connections to Egyptian words.
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And so that's one one idea.
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For example, there's the word in Hebrew, yam, suf.
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And that was the name that Moses used to describe the sea that was crossed.
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Yam meaning sea, but suf, the question is, what does suf mean?
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And what the Egyptian approach would say is that suf means reeds, that it is the sea of
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reeds or that there's reeds involved.
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And so that's the reason why a lot of scholars in the last number of years have have moved
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the thinking of the sea crossing to those border lakes.
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And the other group is I call Hebrew.
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And those are looking at the Hebrew word and you're saying, wait a minute, yam suf, suf
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does not mean green.
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It means end or boundary.
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And it was used to describe yam suf is used as the name for the Gulf of Aqaba, which is
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the right arm of the Red Sea that comes up to Elat in Israel.
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It's used to describe the boundary.
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When Moses talks about the boundary of the nation or the promised land, the southern
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boundary is this location called yam suf, which is connected to the Gulf of Aqaba.
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So is it the sea of reeds or is the sea of boundary is the Gulf of Aqaba?
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So are we looking at lakes or are we looking at us, you know, the sea?
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And along with that then comes different views as to how the water was parted.
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So the bottom line here is that the Egyptian approach and the sea of reeds is a much, much
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smaller miracle because the water levels are so much lower.
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Whereas the Hebrew approach over at the Gulf of Aqaba, that's a very deep body of water.
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And so that's more in keeping with how the Bible describes this major stopping of the
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water and a wall of water on both sides of the Israelites as they walked across.
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And then it being deep enough to drown the Egyptian army.
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And so it's a matter of how big is the miracle these two locations?
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So my question to you is why do most people assume this Egyptian approach with the smaller
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miracle?
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Is there more evidence pointing towards that one?
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I think the idea of natural, in other words, that God works within the laws of nature of
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people that look at this as a, because it says the ancient was the wind.
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Some interpret, even if that happened at the Gulf of Aqaba, there are some that believe
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it happened at the tip of the Gulf further up north at another body of water where the
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wind was blowing for a long time, you know, for several hours.
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And then over the time that would call what's called wind set down, it pushes the water
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back.
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And so what you end up with is a piece of dry land and waters.
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For miles, you know, I mean, it's a it's a long stretch.
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But the challenge that people in Hebrew would have pointed out, it says that there were walls
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of water on each both sides of them.
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And if you do a wind set down, then you don't see that wall of water.
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It's so far off that it just hardly looks like anything.
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And so that's the that's the challenge that people are suggesting.
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So the question that goes back to wire have people been attracted to this idea is that,
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you know, in the 1800s, when Darwinism came into play and people are looking for naturalistic
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explanations for creation and for a number of things, there are there are people that
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are trying to take the supernatural out of the equation and to try to find out, well,
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how could this have happened in a more naturalistic way?
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But in the defense of people on the Egyptian side that are believers, they would say that,
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wait a minute, it's the timing that God caused the wind to blow at just the right time.
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And that's the miracle.
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The miracle is in the timing of God's provision, which is very true that God miraculous timing
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for when it rains or when it doesn't rain or whatever.
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There can be, you know, God acting in nature, which is which can happen.
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And so that's where these two felt that these well, I made two films about it because there's
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so much to talk about.
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Brent C. Miracle one and two cover these two different viewpoints.
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And the big question then is what does that say about the miracle?
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Well, you know, when I was watching it, I kept asking myself, well, could the water levels
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of those Egyptian lakes have been higher back 3000 years ago?
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You know, that it is could be an extension of the Red Sea and the Suez now there, the
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Suez, could it have been deeper then?
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That's a great question.
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And I'm trying to remember, I don't know if I have a good answer for you, but I've been
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told by one scholar that, yes, the water was was deeper at that time.
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And often what happens is that the water is coming from it's coming because it's being
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filled up, you know, from the Nile.
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And there's there's different places.
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And it's an it's an area where there's many different lakes.
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So we don't know there's different theories as to which lake happened.
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But you should also know that the Nile Delta has been has been going off out into the Mediterranean
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Sea to.
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So some of the places that exist don't exist the way they were back then.
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And the Nile keeps twisting and turning and it's changing its course and certain areas
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where the now was the now moved.
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And so a lot of what was there isn't there anymore.
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And and so there's different possibly even a much more precipitation and more of a green
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greenness to the area.
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That's another question about the, you know, Exodus out of Egypt was the Sinai more lush
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than it was today, because that was 3,500 years ago.
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And it's very possible that that the the environment has changed.
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Well, you've certainly done your share of research on this.
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So I'm really interested to know some more detail here.
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Other than the the weakness of the Egyptian theory is that the water levels as we understand
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them just are not high enough to produce these walls of water on two sides and then to drown
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the Egyptian army.
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You can you can show a wind and and creating parting the water so to walk across.
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But the rest of the story, it's really, really hard to recreate that right.
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Yes, what you're referring to to, we showed in the film is that in route to have water
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parting with winds out, it can't be very deep.
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It has to be, you know, in that two to four feet, depending upon how much wind does it
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take to blow in to blow water and how much time does it take to blow that water?
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Now when the water comes back, it'll be a taller, you know, it'll be more like six
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feet or eight feet will be like a surge coming back.
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So the the idea here is that that even though it might have been a shallow, you know, water
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that people in their defense for the Egyptian approach think that this water when it comes
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back would actually be scary.
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It would be like eight to 10 feet, you know, and if you're only, let's say six feet tall,
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you don't need more than, let's say six and a half feet of water to drown in if you don't
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know how to swim or if you're tumbling in the current and everything.
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So that's what they're saying.
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But I think the some people have said, well, the miracle is not could the water part, but
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how did that many Egyptians drown in that shallow water?
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I've heard that joke a few times.
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And so that's the reason why we've been looking at it because there are many, many scholars
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that that support this near Egypt approach.
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And so we're just raising the question and and saying, well, if you look at this pattern
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of evidence and you you had passed what has happened historically, because every Bible
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shows crossings real near Egypt, the Sea of Reeds.
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So you've been, you know, in a sense had that indoctrination of in the back of every Bible,
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you see where the Israelites, you know, cross this Red Sea next to Egypt or the bitter lakes
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or one of these lakes.
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And then they go down to the traditional Mount Sinai.
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And but there are other names and other connections that we see in the Hebrew approach that they're
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saying there needs to be considerations here.
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And but if you have maybe a hundred years of people naming things close to Egypt and
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they've built a case and they've taught that for years, that's basically a tradition that's
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been passed on to many, many people.
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And so as we've gone on these films and said, well, what's well, are there other ways to
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look at this that might find us answers that are more satisfying?
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Well, the Yom Suf, you already mentioned that, but Yom Suf, which can be translated either
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Sea of Reeds or it's been translated as the Red Sea.
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You said it literally means the end, see the word or could be.
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But Yom Suf, does that appear anywhere else in the Bible?
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Yom Suf appears, yes, it appears, I believe on Hezekiah and I think it was Hezekiah and
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Solomon, they had a fleet of ships on Yom Suf.
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So there are other other biblical references to Yom Suf.
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Once again, it's when the Moses is writing the boundary of Israel.
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So my question has been, if Moses is referencing that name and in the same account that he's
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describing not too long after the sea crossing and he's using Yom Suf for the sea crossing
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and then he's using Yom Suf for the boundary, does he mean anything different?
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Because we know the boundary of Israel is not one of these lakes next to Egypt.
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We know we see it as the Gulf of Aqaba, which is an arm of the Red Sea and it's over on
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the east side of the Sinai Desert.
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So that's where Solomon would have had his ships, correct?
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Correct, yes.
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And so what some people said, oh, there's many Yoms Sufs and that's a clever idea.
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But I said, well, isn't the point of giving something a name so you know where it is,
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you know, I mean, to name something, is this the sea of the end, is Aqaba that sea?
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And so that's when people see the films, they're going to be able to see the argument and they
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can do more research for themselves.
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What I was trying to point out was that I could film multiple scholars and they were
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giving me these different positions.
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So in our films, what we try to do is to categorize things so that people can better understand
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the basic arguments that are being made.
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And then you measure them for a pattern and you're looking to see, does this satisfy a
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pattern that we can see that the scripture is the account is defining or describing?
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And you say, well, which one matches the pattern the best?
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Well, in addition to the location of Yoms Suf, there are other locations that are mentioned
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in the Exodus story.
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So it says that they leave Ramses there at Sukkot, they go to Ethom.
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It mentions a Mighdal in Balsaphone and Paihati wrote.
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You pronounce that.
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And so, you know, we'll see those locations mapped out on our Bible maps and the route
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that they took.
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And then there's a Refideen that I think has 12 springs, all these places in the story.
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Can you find, can you map those locations to a farther away Red Sea Exodus?
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They seem to be closer there to the Egyptian lakes.
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Correct.
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Correct.
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Yes.
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So what has happened is that the names for, let's say Mighdal, which means Ford, these
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words, Paihati wrote, they're coordinates to tell you where the sea crossing happened.
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And in both cases, the Egyptian approach has used Egyptian names and they're using them
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to say, I can find these terms here near Egypt and they are matching the biblical text.
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And the Hebrew approach is saying, no, Sukkot means, you know, I think it means campsite.
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So they're saying that the sea of Yamsuf is in a wilderness and it's not right next
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to Egypt.
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It's the way of the wilderness of Yamsuf is a road that crosses the Sinai and they're
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saying that this is the direction that they're heading and that they stop at this place called
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Ethan.
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I think it's a flat area and there's identifications where that campsite might be.
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So what ends up happening is we have educated guesses by biblical geographers on different
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camps and they're going to say, this is my Ethan or Etim and this is my Pihaihirov.
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I believe that the Hebrew term for Pihaihirov means mouth of the cave and some now in Egyptian
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approach would say it means mouth of the canal, but it's an opening.
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And so that people like Professor Hopmeyer will say that it's right next to canals and
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that they were in that area.
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And others will say, no, there's a gorge that opens up that's like a cave opening and it's
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the mouth of this gorge where they're going into the Wadiwateer down to Nweebo.
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And so as we look at the different presentations, I liken it a little bit to motor trends where
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your people have vehicles, right?
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And you're looking at the latest models and you're looking at these different models and
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you're comparing the performance of those.
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Well, we have the same things with these ideas that people have taken and said, well, which
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ones make the most sense?
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And so the Hebrew approach is saying that I've seen when I've listened to scholars, they're
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finding those terms and they're making a case for this is the name.
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This is where this name fits my place, my crossing.
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And in the film, we show I think seven different locations that potential were there, three
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up in Egypt and then there's the crossings.
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There's four ones at the tip of the Gulf of Aqaba, which is the Straits of Turan.
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The other ones at Nweebo Beach, which is in the center of the Gulf of Aqaba.
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Then there's one at the tip of Aqaba, which is Sir Colin Humphries from Cambridge and
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he thinks that and then there's one a little bit further north in the body of bodies of
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water that show up.
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I'm not sure how far it is, but let's say eight to 10 miles north where there's water
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that is up in that area and that there's a connection to that with these minds.
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So each one of those scholars builds their case for why they think these biblical terms
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fit.
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Well, I guess the takeaway is that the Bible can absolutely be true and be accurate in
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this story.
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And the fact that we don't know the locations exactly doesn't mean that they weren't exact
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locations in the story is very, very specifically true.
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This leads us to our last question, Tim, about Mount Horib.
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There's a famous Mount Sinai with a monastery there, but there's other locations depending
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on the story and the route will depend on where Mount Sinai is.
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What do you have to say about that?
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That's correct.
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And you know, one of the things is that there are geographical indicators in the scripture
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as you look at it.
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And what I'm seeing is plausibility is that we're trying to look at because it's something
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that happened 3,500 years ago.
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And I've talked to some scholars and say, well, how would you find this?
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But you can look at geographical indicators and the next film, Journey to Mount Sinai,
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is what we're working on now.
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And Journey to Mount Sinai is going to pick us up from the crossing.
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So this is what happens is if you cross the Gulf of Aqaba, you are now in Saudi Arabia
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and in the Northwest part of that is the ancient land of Midian.
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And for me, that was very compelling because I believe that Moses, as we know, he fled
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from Egypt after he killed an Egyptian and he fled and he stayed with Jethro and he lived
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in the land of Midian for 40 years.
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And this is where he had this encounter with God at the burning bush and said, bring these
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people back to me at this mountain.
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So what's happening is that there are a number of people that like that area and they believe
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that Yamsu is the Gulf of Aqaba.
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There are other people that say, no, they crossed one of these seas and if they crossed
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one of these seas up near Egypt, they could still end up in the land of Midian.
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And some people can send them across the Sinai to other moans such as Har Kharkun, which
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is in the southern Nakev moan.
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Southern Nakev, it's an area that my wife and I were able to go there.
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And there's other things that they say match the biblical text.
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And then others take them down into the Sinai Peninsula and there's a connection where they're
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looking at that.
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So Journey to Mount Sinai is our next film.
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But once again, if you cross, depending on what sea you cross, it does indicate that
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you're heading, that the mountain has to be on the other side of that.
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That's most likely what we're saying, which makes sense.
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It's very practical.
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And I think that there are some very compelling pieces of evidence that have been brought
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forward that we're going to be showing in the coming up films that we've got.
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In fact, we're going to make two of them.
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One's called Journey to Mount Sinai and the second one is Mountain of God.
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And Mountain of God really is an exciting film too.
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Probably too early to talk about it, but it's really about what's happening in our nation
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right now and happening in the world.
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Is there a God?
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And did He give these commands?
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And all the things that are established, this is where Israel, God marries Israel at this
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mountain.
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They make a covenant with Him.
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And if we look at the covenants that have been made through time, I think covenants
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are very, very important.
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And I'm excited about these next two films because they're going to continue to help
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give us deeper understanding into what happened that changed the world with this covenant.
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So this is exciting stuff, exciting materials, and there's physical evidence that we're going
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to look at that is very, very, you know, that it matches the biblical account.
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We can't wait till you have your next two films.
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We'll certainly have you back then to discuss them.
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And I know that our short time here together today is just a real introduction to what
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you lay out in just beautiful detail in your documentary, Patterns of Evidence, The Red
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Sea, Part One and Part Two.
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So we link in our show notes to today's show how you can order that documentary as well
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as his first one, Patterns of Evidence on the Exodus.
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Really recommend you get both, and I should say all three, all three parts and really
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dig deeper.
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And for me, the takeaway is that don't let the skeptics tell you that the Bible is not
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true, that there's no evidence to it.
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Just because we cannot tell you exactly these place names and the wilderness wanderings
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and the Red Sea crossing, there are so many possibilities, places that line up with the
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text.
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And so be encouraged and stick with us on the rest of our time together and going
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deeper.
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And we're going to have Tim back next week or in a few weeks, actually, and we're going
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to discuss the evidence of the conquest of the land of Israel.
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So we look forward to having everyone back with us then.
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And Tim, thank you so much.
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We look forward to having you back with us next time.
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And until then, God bless.
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We hope you have enjoyed this episode of Out of Zion with Susan Michael.
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Be sure to subscribe to Out of Zion now on Apple Podcasts, cpnshows.com, YouTube, or
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wherever you like to listen and learn.
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Out of Zion with Susan Michael is a production of ICEJ USA All Rights Reserved.
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